View Full Version : Expert oponion
S.A. Boggs
06-18-2018, 04:03
Just what qualifies a person to be an "expert" on anything?:icon_scratch:
Sam
clintonhater
06-18-2018, 05:31
Experience PLUS brains, or rather, thoughtful intelligence, because thoughtlessness & brains can go together. But all the experience in the world doesn't help the stupid to see beyond the obvious & simplistic.
JOHN COOK
06-18-2018, 05:51
When I was in LE I was told that an expert was a SOB from out of town with a brief case.:icon_lol:
john
It seems to be those who have a lot to say whether it be verbally or written. Often those who know the most are the quietest so there are those who are actual experts vs those who think they are experts or just want attention.
JOHN COOK
06-18-2018, 06:05
OK.....:eusa_shhh:
john
When I worked at the refinery those that were promoted were "instant experts". The previous day their opinions wouldn't have been worth "squat".
JOHN COOK
06-18-2018, 06:59
I know some of those. "yesterday I couldn't spell ENGIN NEAR and now I are one" :eusa_whistle:
john
Just what qualifies a person to be an "expert" on anything?:icon_scratch:
Sam
I don't know about other fields but....... When in gunsmith school an instructor informed us; "The only person who can claim to be a 'gun expert' would be one who knows Everything about Every gun that was Ever manufactured and such a person doesn't exist".
clintonhater
06-18-2018, 07:39
I don't know about other fields but....... When in gunsmith school an instructor informed us; "The only person who can claim to be a 'gun expert' would be one who knows Everything about Every gun that was Ever manufactured and such a person doesn't exist".
A requirement to know "Everything" in any field is impossibly restrictive. A relative expert may simply be someone who knows slightly more than you; but that's meaningless if you know very little. But there are many who approach a knowledge of "Everything," even if they fall short of that (impossible) goal. For ex., Brophy surely qualifies as a Springfield expert, though there are mistakes & omissions in his book, as there always are when one tackles any major subject.
Politicians are good examples of self proclaimed experts. They have practically destroyed the world as we know it. It has taken someone like Trump who is not a politician nor political expert but merely a citizen on the sidelines with common sense who has become fed up with the corruption going on to attempt to straighten things out.
JB White
06-18-2018, 07:56
Just like "Master Carpenter". There is no such thing anymore and hasn't been for ages. Impossible to master the scope of the trade in several lifetimes. Not even Norm Abram thinks himself a master carpenter, but he is on record in interviews saying his producers think it sounds more impressive.
Expert. Ex = former and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
He can spell the word opinion. snicker.
"...and now I are one..." Exactly what St. Bill said when he made me an MCSE.
Faulkner
06-18-2018, 11:57
If you have to ask it probably is not you.
clintonhater
06-18-2018, 12:25
Just like "Master Carpenter". There is no such thing anymore and hasn't been for ages. Impossible to master the scope of the trade in several lifetimes. Not even Norm Abram thinks himself a master carpenter, but he is on record in interviews saying his producers think it sounds more impressive.
You're assigning a meaning to "master" that's not traditional, if it can ONLY mean experience in every conceivable work a carpenter might be asked to do. If that's the bar that must be cleared, then there can't be "masters" in any craft. What it traditionally meant is the attainment of a high--but not impossibly high-- degree of professional competence, as judged by others in the profession.
I don't know about other fields but....... When in gunsmith school an instructor informed us; "The only person who can claim to be a 'gun expert' would be one who knows Everything about Every gun that was Ever manufactured and such a person doesn't exist".
You nailed it I have been saying that for years!!
Jiminvirginia
06-18-2018, 05:57
An expert is someone who knows when they need help.
Think about that for awhile.
Just what qualifies a person to be an "expert" on anything?:icon_scratch:
Sam
An expert is not someone who knows the subject exhaustively. Rather, it is someone who knows where to find the answers to the subject that he and others seek.
Duane Hansen
06-18-2018, 08:44
An expert is not someone who knows the subject exhaustively. Rather, it is someone who knows where to find the answers to the subject that he and others seek.
I totally agree. Several years ago l taught a class on Plumbing Code in our local apprenticeship program. I personally believe that no one can know the complete plumbing code in any given area. So l approached the class with the idea that it would be much more realistic to teach the students how to find the answers to their plumbing questions rather than trying to memorize a book of facts and figures.
SwampRatt
06-18-2018, 09:06
Hmm, an Ex is a hasbeen and a spurt is a drip under pressure.
And that means...
Don't ever say that again.
clintonhater
06-19-2018, 05:15
An expert is not someone who knows the subject exhaustively. Rather, it is someone who knows where to find the answers to the subject that he and others seek.
The exact job-description of an old-fashioned Reference Librarian. They're mostly extinct today, superseded by Google & similar platforms, but not much needed anymore--anybody with an I-Phone & some internet familarity can do as much. So I guess, according to this definition, the status of expert is not the life-achievement I once took it to be--decades of experience leading to perfection of skills isn't necessary, if you know who or where to ask.
JB White
06-19-2018, 07:31
You're assigning a meaning to "master" that's not traditional, if it can ONLY mean experience in every conceivable work a carpenter might be asked to do. If that's the bar that must be cleared, then there can't be "masters" in any craft. What it traditionally meant is the attainment of a high--but not impossibly high-- degree of professional competence, as judged by others in the profession.
In my area, the term used for a well experienced carpenter in his/her particular fields is, "good mechanic". Use the word "master" and you have just shot your own reputation to hell and back.
clintonhater
06-19-2018, 09:55
In my area, the term used for a well experienced carpenter in his/her particular fields is, "good mechanic". Use the word "master" and you have just shot your own reputation to hell and back.
Well, what ever happened to the traditional system of apprentice-journeyman-master? It guaranteed a predictable level of proficiency in any craft or trade, with papers to prove it.
What with all this talk of expert this, that and the other. Look I got TWO BS de-grees, one in computer science and one in mechanical engineering, and over 30 years engineering work experience. What does that mean? It means that my time growing up in the sticks, on farms that grew mostly rocks, and then spending all my spare time for 4 years in the high school agri-shop, was more valuable than my degrees!
Below, after turning what should have been a half hour job into a 5-6 hour project.......a ditty that I sent to my son, a USAF F-16 crew chief. I dared him to put that up in his shop.................
Tommy
43684
When I was an LEO I was cautioned to be very careful on ever giving an "expert" opinion. If you are an "expert," at least in court, if you are ever wrong you can be discredited forever. Everybody in my agency was required to be "proficient in the Spanish language." We were cautioned about ever claiming we were "fluent," because if we did any error in Spanish we made in reports or testimony would be used to impeach us. I and a lot of other agents at times underwent informal Spanish language tests on the witness stand. If we flubbed up, which almost never happened we would ball back on the defense that we were only "proficient" and not "fluent;" fluency being the equivalent of "expert" in language.
Vern Humphrey
06-19-2018, 01:01
Well, what ever happened to the traditional system of apprentice-journeyman-master? It guaranteed a predictable level of proficiency in any craft or trade, with papers to prove it.
We did away with it. We used to have standards, so when you asked "What is a master electrician?" the answer was to refer to the standards.
Our education system no longer has "trade schools" -- or not many. The education system is run by academics, who look down on people who work with their hands. There's no reason a kid can't graduate from high school certified as a journeyman electrician, carpenter, auto mechanic, etc. The nation would be better for it.
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When I was an LEO I was cautioned to be very careful on ever giving an "expert" opinion. If you are an "expert," at least in court, if you are ever wrong you can be discredited forever. Everybody in my agency was required to be "proficient in the Spanish language." We were cautioned about ever claiming we were "fluent," because if we did any error in Spanish we made in reports or testimony would be used to impeach us. I and a lot of other agents at times underwent informal Spanish language tests on the witness stand. If we flubbed up, which almost never happened we would ball back on the defense that we were only "proficient" and not "fluent;" fluency being the equivalent of "expert" in language.
Interesting -- I had a friend who was on the witness stand and the lawyer questioned his ability to see what he had seen and asked him to read something he held at some distance. The friend said, "Your Honor, if I am to undergo an eye test, I would like it administered by a registered optician."
S.A. Boggs
06-20-2018, 02:55
Now for part two of my question:
Fact checker seem now to be in vogue, Why? What give these people the ability to give "superior" opinion not fact? MSM these days seem to be full of people telling us the "truth" which is often biased, only based in their reality. What gives?:icon_scratch:
Sam
JB White
06-20-2018, 03:46
Well, what ever happened to the traditional system of apprentice-journeyman-master? It guaranteed a predictable level of proficiency in any craft or trade, with papers to prove it.
It's apprentice-journeyman, and that's only after 18 years of age. (Insurance and safety etc.). Most trades I'm aware of require a minimum of a high school diploma or GED before being considered for apprentice training. Apprenticeships vary between 4 and 6 years depending upon the trade and qualifications for licensing.
Apprentices can fast track with previous skills and training is some cases. Once they've completed their combination of schooling and on-the-job, along with passing their tests and have enough hours logged for both, only then do they make the grade to journeyman.
Once a journeyman that's it. Additional training and cross training may be required to obtain and renew certifications. The more certs and current training, the more jobs you can "journey" to.
Any additional titles are lead man, crew foreman, site foreman or general foreman, etc and various forms of superintendent if the current employer sees fit. As a journeyman one may be in charge of running a project only to be back working in the mud on the next one. Then any aforementioned position again thereafter if offered or applied for. Never in my career (retired now) was the title "master" ever part of the lexicon. Not unless it was a joke. Those who claimed it became a joke.
Once a journeyman always a journeyman. Different titles typically means extra pay to go along with the added responsibilities, but your card still says journeyman.
More recently the term certified/advanced journeyman (along with some similar titles) is being used to describe an individual who has continued his education above and beyond most.
IditarodJoe
06-20-2018, 05:17
Sounds like it varies by state. I recall when a good friend in Michigan got his Master Plumber License back in the '70s. It was a really big deal for him. JB, here's a link to the State of Michigan Department of Licensing and Regulation web page describing the licensing requirements. https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-10575_17394_77372-42835--,00.html
Arkansas has varying grades of (supposed ... grin) competency for some trades, e.g. "Master Plumber".
It does vary by state.
Tommy
JB White
06-20-2018, 09:21
The term obviously varies by State, but notice the term 'master' is used to describe licensing and that is used by the State itself.
Master Plumber License
•Must be at least 18 years of age.
•Must have 4,000 hours experience in work as a journey plumber over a period of not less than 2 years immediately preceding the date of the application.
•Must pay the examination fee and pass the examination.
•Must pay the license fee.
18 years of age. 4000 hours. Not less than two years.... Master? From journeyman to master in less time than is takes to get a journeyman's card? Things need to be taken into context. Plumbing is a whole lot more than simply turd herding and only a few can see everything let alone keep up with changes as time progresses.
I doubt a young "master plumber" in Escanaba MI is 100% capable of doing hi-rise and underground work in Manhattan without having to learn something new first.
noslack327
06-20-2018, 11:36
According to black's law dictionary having more knowledge on a subject than a layman or average person.
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When I was a LEO I was a DRE, and deemed to be a expert in superior court, based on knowledge and arrests made because of that knowledge.
JOHN COOK
06-20-2018, 11:50
A digital rectal examination (DRE) is a simple procedure ?????
When I was a LEO I was a DRE, and deemed to be a expert in superior court, based on knowledge and arrests made because of that knowledge.
I testified in court quite a few times but never in this area...:1948:
LOL
john
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