View Full Version : Books on B-17s
I just read an excellent book on the B-17 air wars called Masters of the Air by Donald Miller. Can anyone suggest other such books?
Robert Scott
08-30-2018, 02:25
A Higher Call: An Incredible True Story of Combat and Chivalry in the War-Torn Skies of World War II
Great book is all I can say.
If you want a book that is practically a text book on the B17 . . . .yet is a “smooth” read . . . .I suggest:
“Flying Fortress”, by Edward Jablonsky. (1965)
To quote the title page:
“The illustrated biography of the B-17s and the men who flew them.”
I think this sums it up.
I did read Higher Call....Excellent book. The other I will requisition. Thanks to both of you for the response.
Tmark . . . .
I believe you will enjoy “excerpts from the pilot training manual for the Flying Fortress”, which appears on page 324 of the book. It puts you “in the pilot’s seat.” —Jim
m1ashooter
09-01-2018, 05:59
There are some really good Army Air Corps training videos on You Tube also on the B17 and other aircraft.
There are some really good Army Air Corps training videos on You Tube also on the B17 and other aircraft.
I did see a few of those youtubes. After viewing years of war footage B-17 youtube videos, one had a pic of the Fortress my father was shot in over Germany. The pic is of Sunny II. Of course, this pic was before my dad was used as a substitute Ball Turret gunner. After Sunny II crashlanded (belly-landed) on an English farmer's field, the plane was junked.
Dad was seriously wounded when a 20 mm cannon shell from a F-190 exploded in his ball turret over Ludwigshaven.
m1ashooter
09-01-2018, 08:52
I did see a few of those youtubes. After viewing years of war footage B-17 youtube videos, one had a pic of the Fortress my father was shot in over Germany. The pic is of Sunny II. Of course, this pic was before my dad was used as a substitute Ball Turret gunner. After Sunny II crashlanded (belly-landed) on an English farmer's field, the plane was junked.
Dad was seriously wounded when a 20 mm cannon shell from a F-190 exploded in his ball turret over Ludwigshaven.
Thank you for sharing this with us. I had the honor to work at Headquarters 8th Air Force in the late 80's.
My late dad's leg developed an infection circa 1967. The doctor at the VA hospital pulled a match-head size of shrapnel from the infected area which I asked the doctor to give me. I have it on display with pictures of the crash site with plane.
Doc said my dad has too many fragments in his leg and thigh to extract them all. VA gave dad 90% disability.
7.62match
09-12-2018, 09:41
If you can find it the book " One Last Look " Good read with lots of good pictures. bought it years ago for my father for his birthday , dad found a picture of his bomb group flying over Germany.
"The Crew" by John Comer, I read the diary before it was put to print. the part they left out would put the reader in the plane.
F. Guffey
The follow on book; Superforttess, The B-29 and American Air Power by Curtiss Lemay & Bill Yenne. It was actually in the design works before the B-17. Design, mfgr, development and employment in the Pacific and early beginnings of Strategic Air Command.
The B-29 and American Air Power by Curtiss Lemay & Bill Yenne. It was actually in the design works before the B-17
In a book labeled Battle Plan there was a bomber listed as a B19. One purpose of the book was for silhouette identification of airplanes. The book did not list the twin engine Air Cobra P39, my favorite.
F. Guffey
The book did not list the twin engine Air Cobra P39, my favorite.
The P39 was the Russians favorite, they labeled the P39 as a tank buster and then there were the doors; The doors were made by Hudson, that made it almost impossible to get out of it unless the P39 was put into a stall.
F. Guffey
[QUOTE=fguffey;573471]The book did not list the twin engine Air Cobra P39, my favorite.
F. Guffey[/QUote
I don't believe the Bell P-39 Air Cobra or King Cobra had 2 engines. The engine was behind the pilot with the propeller drive shaft rinning thru the cockpit between the pilot's legs. Don't know, but I hope it was in a covered "tunnel".
Yes, we lend-leased them to the Russians who probably utilized them the best. Percentage of pilots lost on the P-39 was higher than other airframes.
I just read an excellent book on the B-17 air wars called Masters of the Air by Donald Miller. Can anyone suggest other such books?
Check out the link. My Dad was the pilot of this B17.
http://www.emielros.nl/bommenwerper/index.en.html
I don't believe the Bell P-39 Air Cobra or King Cobra had 2 engines
I do, not all of them. It had two Allisons, two drive shafts and two counter rotating propellers, one engine was upright and the other was upside down.
F. Guffey
Fguffey- I've checked thru all models and variants and can find no record of P-39s with contra rotating props. I've seen the Ganet which does. If you have any pics or specs I would like to add it to my old aircraft files.
PMC, if I tell you a chicken dips snuff you should not argue when all you have to do is lift the chickens wings to see if it carries the can on the right or left side.
F. Guffey
Guffey- There is no historical evidence of Bell making a P-39 with 2 engines, as far as the chicken; everyone knows they don't have room in their lips to put snuff.
Guffey- There is no historical evidence of Bell making a P-39 with 2 engines,
I was impressed, they bolted two Allisons together, two heads up and two heads down. Time and time again it was suggested the Germans mount Merlin/Packard engines in the ME109. I never understood that one, the ME109 engine was a 3,500 cubic inch engine +/- a few and the Merlin/Packard engine was a 2,500 cubic inch engine +/- a few.
F. Guffey
Guffey- There is no historical evidence of Bell making a P-39 with 2 engines
It was the one with two drive shafts. And there was other distinguishing features.
F. Guffey
Ok, I'll bite.....
Still no source for P39 or P63's with 2 engines or contra rotating props, even as custom post war racers.
Ok, I'll bite.....
Still no source for P39 or P63's with 2 engines or contra rotating props, even as custom post war racers.
Doing you work for you is a thankless job. I have the book, in the book they describe how it was installed. The failure had to with the design of the tail; many pilots were killed because the design of out planes had a tail with elevators. The British proved it was better to install an elevator without the tail.
F. Guffey
"The book".....I too would like to add this bit of abstruse knowledge to my aircraft library, but need the source of the historical information, which doesn't appear anywhere else.
"The book".....I too would like to add this bit of abstruse knowledge to my aircraft library, but need the source of the historical information, which doesn't appear anywhere else.
There was a time when I would say " I will go dig" but now I have no interest in doing something so unappreciated. I had a very weak moment a few months go when I read the Washington Redskins decided it could be time to change their name and logo; so I starting digging. The book was headed to a land-fill with a truck/compactor load of books that were purged from libraries in the area. I made a deal with the drivers, they agreed to unload the sacks of books 'at my place' and come back the following week. Upon their return they would unload another load and pick up the ones they left.
Anyhow the old tattered, torn and faded book left me with the ideal there were worst things to be called than a Washington Redskin. All of this was from the time we called the British 'Red Coats' and because they had no respect for us they called us 'The Little Blue Hens'. And do not forget the French wore Green Coats and now Texans are called Gringos.
F. Guffey
I used to be the president of the Maricopa County Friends Of The Library; we sold withdrawn, seldom or never checked out or over "loved" books (worn), and used the money to support childrens reading programs and library special events. Many of the unappreciated books fit my eclectic reading interests. That's how I added to my B17, B26, B29 and B36 library. I also have video footage of the piston and jet powered flying wing and other xperimental aircraft. So, I'm sorry you let go of otherwise unknown history of the P39/P63.
So, I'm sorry you let go of otherwise unknown history of the P39/P63.
I did not say I got rid of books, if it has anything to do with military books I still have it; I said I would not make the effort to dig it out. I offered to send books to Africa, I lost interest when they said I had to pay shipping. But before that they wanted to know about the authors and titles. I told them it was all or nothing, problem, they did not trust their readers with my books.
I told them that was the problem with the MAU MAU rebellion and before that the Nat Turner rebellion.
F. Guffey
Back to the 39, the Russians loved the plane, they used it as a tank buster. Piolets of different planes described the cockpits of some planes as "a hell of a place to die"; the P39 used Hudson made car doors with the hinges in front and I wondered how was it possible to get out of the plane in an emergency?
The machine guns and cannons fired selectively, the Russians wired them together (some say), firing them together slowed the plane down 40 mph.
F. Guffey
Continued firing of the A10's 30mm cannon will stall the plane, at least that is what I heard from a Davis-Monthon pilot
And then there was the Titanic; the only way the Titanic could sink would be if they did nothing. And that is what they did, nothing.
F. Guffey
I don't follow your convoluted reasoning; how do you get to sinking ships from recoil affects on aircraft firing their cannons?
I don't follow your convoluted reasoning;
Did you understand the part about the big ship sinking? I said it was not necessary.
F. Guffey
Yes, I read it, but there is no straight line connection between cannon recoil on an airframe and an aledged "unnecessary" sinking oceanliner unless you wander around awhile.
Once the water got over the first bulkhead, the Titanic was doomed to go down by the head. Unnecessary if you change the design, unnecessary if you change the course, ......maybe if it had a rail to launch a recoverable sea plane, then the ship would have a connection to aircraft, but alas it didn't.
Yes, I read it, but there is no straight line connection between cannon recoil on an airframe and an aledged "unnecessary" sinking oceanliner unless you wander around awhile.
Depends; I am of the opinion you believe I am trying to out do you and you are going for the last word. Back to recoil, I was impressed with the instillation of the 75MM Howitzer that was installed in the B25 and the possible configurations of 50 Cal. machineguns on and in the B26.
14/16 lifeboats left the Captain with no options, all he had to do was slap that big boat in reverse, let out on the clutch and then return to Ireland/England. I understand it would have been embarrassing for the Captain drive that big boat into port looking backwards.
Slapping the big boat in reverse would have stopped the water from running in and once under way the water in the big boat would have flowed out. Down in front: Once underway water flowing under the boat would have pushed the front up and that could not have been a bad thing.
If sailing that boat back to England/Irland would have been embarrassing they could have backed the out and sailed in a big circle while they waited for the Carpathian. And then they could have run the big boat over to the Californian and tied up to it.
F. Guffey
If that was a VIABLE option I believe the responsible people on scene, including the ships designer, would have taken it.
If that was a VIABLE option I believe the responsible people on scene, including the ships designer, would have taken it.
Again, they did nothing and the ship sank.
Earlier, Jack Johnson on that ship wanted to go but the captain told him that ship did not haul no coal. By those that were denied passage sang a song about the Titanic speeding around a curve and bumped into a big old iceberg. They say when Jack Johnson heard about that ship he did the eagle rock and the double back flip
The song was recorded at the time but did not get air time. The song was included in Ledbetter's Last Secession.
F. Guffey
Had there been any shipman ship going on when the ship hit ‘the big iceberg’ the first man on the scene would have kicked the dogs out of the anchor winches and sent the anchors and chains to the deep blue sea.
And then a ‘and then moment’? If someone asks the seaman “Why did you do that?” The seaman could have said; I wanted the bow of the ship to come up, not down. SO! All of you non sailors turnaround and head to the stern of the shop, that is the end of the ship with the propellers.
F. Guffey
If the Titanic had three matching anchors the weight of all three could have been close to 50,000 pounds. And if the links weighed 250 pounds each three chains could have weighed 40,000 pounds.
F. Guffey
I'll allow you may know more about loading than many here on Jouster, except for possibly shoulder set back, but you should recognize that on the scene experts dealing with the situation, under stress, knew more than an arm chair quarter back analysis more than a hundred years later.
I'll allow you may know more about loading than many here on Jouster, except for possibly shoulder set back
Shoulder set back:
I am the only one that says it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. I am told it is possible; problem, no one can tell me how.
I have scribed cases at the shoulder case body juncture; problem, I can not find a reloader that understands what that means.
I am the only reloader that can move the shoulder back but I can not move the shoulder back with a sizing die that has case body.
F. Guffey
S.A. Boggs - Sam, what's the medical term for "I'm right and everyone else is wrong"?
S.A. Boggs - Sam, what's the medical term for "I'm right and everyone else is wrong"?
I can not move the shoulder of a case back when sizing a case with a die that has full body support. I can not bump a shoulder back, I understand it sounds cool, I am not trying to be cool I am trying to be honest.
Back to the big ships, nothing changed the moment the Titanic hit the iceberg, if the Captain stops thinking and does nothing there is a big chance the ship will be lost. John Paul Jones was given a ship that was sinking and he knew it was going to sink. He did not have any alligators but he did have some big guns; when they fired them the big guns cleared his deck and killed the gun crews. John Paul Jones keep on shipping.
He tied his shop to a beautiful British ship, the captain of the British ship begged his snipers not to shoot John Paul Jones, the British Commander knew the Bonomi Richard was going to sink, he also knew if the Richard sank there would be no place to stand so he surrendered to John Paul Jones; and that made John Paul Jones happy.
F. Guffey
JOHN COOK
08-27-2020, 10:25
PWC, you can’t win a discussion with someone who was present when the universe was created...
John in SC
PWC, you can’t win a discussion with someone who was present when the universe was created...
John in SC
I won't elevate anyone to that level. I'm not trying to win an argument, and I hope this string doesn't come across that way.
We started out discussing books on the B-17's and other classic WWII aircraft, then unsubstantiatable claims for one specific type, then the Titanic sinking, and expressed opinions of a reloader extrodinaire and unrecognized marine engineer. Although having been accused of trying to get the last word, I'm not, but thanks for the warning.
JOHN COOK
08-27-2020, 05:45
I apologize, I didn’t use the correct words in my attempt to say that Mr. Guffey knows everything and he will tell you so.
John in SC
I apologize, I didn’t use the correct words in my attempt to say that Mr. Guffey knows everything and he will tell you so.
John in SC
Thank you, In the beginning I said the case does not have head space; the chamber has head space. What did I know that no one else knew? SAAMI said the case did not have head space. They omitted case head space in their drawings. It was not me that allowed this stuff to get out of control, we had a member that was embarrassed because he had a lot of gigs of space used up declaring case head space. It was not my job to tell him he was wrong but it becomes confusing for new reloaders when they discover the case does not have head space. I had nothing to do with him calling SAAMI, after that he told members what SAAMI said. I did not believe him, and then all of the problems started, his friends started making excuses for him and now he is the final word in reloading.
So I questioned the answers, it was embarrassing for the Navy when they realized they did not know where John Paul Jones was buried, they did not know where his memorial was, they did not know where his statue was, or his plaque or name on a head stone. He left, he went to a place where he was appreciated. They buried him with honors; in a lead casket.
F. Guffey
It is one thing to say you can move the shoulder back and claim you are a bumper; like 'I bump the shoulder back'. It is something else to understand it can not be done. Not my fault.
I am not in the habit of jumping out into the fast lane; those that are stand a good chance of missing 2nd gear or be a little short on horsepower. I have never asked anyone to help me gang up on another member.
F. Guffey
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