SRS check on Trapdoor carbine

[ronc54]

Looking at one, serial number 140589. Not sure if it is authentic. Has a correct 1879 type carbine stock and butt plate but no visible cartouches. Lock plate marked 1873 but has an incorrect 1884 breech block. Correct C marked 1879 rear sight. Patina all looks matching and has an excellent bore. Could this be an arsenal replaced breech block or does this sound like a "parts" gun? Thanks for any help.

[Tom Trevor]

Its not listed in SRS but your number is among many carbines. Good chance its a real carbine. The block is not correct but could have been changed a hundred years ago or last week. Does it have a smooth trigger or the later swept back grooved one?? Hope this helps.

[ronc54]

Thanks very much Tom for the quick response, trying to figure this one out. Posted on another forum as well hoping to hear something in a day or two and got answer in a few hours! The collector community is a good one. Not sure on the trigger will check again soon but I think it was grooved.

[Tom Trevor]

Grooved came in in 1883. So that is replaced as well. Interesting that TODAY at the range a member brought a carbine that belongs to an elderly friend and its in the 150000 range seems to be real carbine with m-1879 carbine sight and 1884 block and grooved trigger. If the arsenal did add these parts I believe the Buffington sight would have been put on as well.

[ronc54]

Interesting, I was wrong has a smooth trigger, just got it home and will take it down if it comes apart easily. I understand the procedure have had two previous rifles and sold both waiting for a carbine at the right price. I do see a spot in front of rear sight where bluing is different, probably where a Buffington was mounted then later replaced. The sight screws are buggered a little so probably "restored" at some point but at least it is a correct carbine sight. Will post some photos later.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a small threaded hole of top of buttplate just forward of top screw, any ideas? Looks to be factory done, not Bubba.

[Tom Trevor]

All carbine buttplates have the small hole it should have the end of a screw flush with the plate. It is the screw that holds part of the spring that tensions the tool cover in the plate. If the hole is empty remove the plate to see what is missing.

[ronc54]

Ahhh. Thanks, traveling not sure if I can find correct fitting screwdriver at my son in law's house so that may have to wait til I get home. Buttplate door seems to work fine, what does that screw hold? Thanks.

[Tom Trevor]

?? To use the screwdrive you have to remove the buttplate. The screw comes from the INSIDE up and the end is flush with the TOP of the plate. As I stated it is part of the spring system that keeps the compartment door from freely moving to the open position. If the screw head is on top on the plate someone has done something wrong.

[ronc54]

Did not explain well, here are pics sorry they did not show up in a logical order. Problem is he does not have a screw driver that fits the buttplate screws well and don't want to bugger them. The compartment door is very tight so maybe just years of dirt and some corrosion. Take a look at the pics, sorry they may not show up in a logical order. I think I have an original carbine that went back through the arsenal and was fitted with the 1884 breech block and probably a Buffington sight. Comparing to pics I found on trapdoor collector site I think it has a M84 front sight blade. There appears to be a band of brighter blue in front of the m79 rear sight so my guess is perhaps there was a Buffington rear sight replacement at one time replaced again with a M79 by someone. Probably will leave it as is til I get a chance to shoot it and see where it hits. I only use light loads in these, factory "cowboy" type and this has a very nice shiny and sharp bore.

I really appreciate all your expertise on this, let me know what you think of it after viewing the pics. There is a noticeable darkness to the forearm on both sides about ten inches back from the front, wondering if this is where it was held tightly in a scabbard?

[ronc54]

Can only add five pics per post, have 26 total so will add. Mods if this is a problem let me know.

[ronc54]

Five more

[ronc54]

five again

[ronc54]

last group of five

[ronc54]

Last pic, thanks.

[ronc54]

Forgot to add, took the pic of the barrel channel in the stock. When I saw it at first thought it might be a fill in for cleaning rod channel where a rifle stock had been cut down.
Moment of panic! It is just staining probably from years of oil and solvent dripping down while cleaning. No signs of any repairs or fill.

[Tom Trevor]

I would say its well used. The screw is missing in the butt plate and I guess the spring as well. Just google carbine but plate and look at the pictures after you remove the plate. You will then see what is missing. Also check e-bay as these parts show up and I see a couple of the springs are on now.

[45govt]

Ron
Take the rear site off and turn it around and it will be correct, and that might line up with the bluing mark.

[ronc54]

Well I'll be .......all the photos I've looked at the last couple of days and never noticed. Explains the buggered screws. Wonder how long it has been that way. Thanks very much.

Added info, just reversed the sight and patina now matches, no signs a Buffington was installed. Now after looking at other pics I think it is the original front sight blade, not a Buffington type. Any thoughts on this, the base and pin don't show any signs of replacement. Thanks.

[ronc54]

Able to get the buttplate off with no problem. Missing the spring and screw that fit under top of buttplate, looks like missing for a long time. Does the end of the spring press against the flat on the hinge plate cam? Place called granpas gun parts has both, could not find the screw on ebay. In any case ordered it and a headless shell extractor. Now need to find a cleaning rod set, look pricey.

[Tom Trevor]

Yes it sits on the flat. Sight screws also can be found on line as well.

[ronc54]

Thanks again. Might as well ask about something else. Numbers stamped in stock under the buttplate. I assume they are probably inspection stamps?

[Tom Trevor]

Most likely, If it were unit identification being inside the part would not do much good.

[ronc54]

Thanks again any thoughts on the 1873 lockplate? Does not seem to be correct for 1880, thought it should not have a date.

[Tom Trevor]

A bit late for the 1873 marked plate. But remember they used up all inventory no matter how long it took. Might have found a few in the back of a box. 1873 breech blocks are found up into 1887.Patina matches its been there a long time.

[Fred]

Please turn you rear sight around. :icon_wink:

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44293&d=1537478270

[ronc54]

Thanks, been traveling, sight is now installed correctly! Took it out to shoot today with some Super X 405 gr cowboy loads. Box indicates 1150 fps muzzle velocity I got an average of 1043 for five shots on the chrono so seems like a good load for this. Recoil was not bad at all. Able to get five shots into about an inch at 25 yds with old eyes and heavy trigger so happy with that. Windage was dead on. At 100 yds had a lot of trouble (old eyes again) getting a consistent sight picture with the small blade, kind of all over the paper but generally seemed the elevation was pretty close with sight at 100 yd setting. Wondering what the correct sight picture is for this sight, centering the front blade with the rear notch was tough. Had a lot of fun shooting a piece of history, twenty rounds with no issues.

[45govt]

"Wondering what the correct sight picture is for this sight"

44450