Argentine Mausers

[leecork]

I recently acquired two very nice Argentine mausers. One is a full length rifle and the other one appears to be the calvary carbine model. Both are Modelo 1909s made in Berlin and stamped 7.65x53. My problem is that that new Norma brass seems to fit the carbine model well, but will not accept this same brass on the full length mauser (not allowing the bolt to close). I have never encountered this kind of problem with new brass. I could use my press to push back the shoulder, but want to avoid this, if possible. Any ideas or input will be appreciated. I will post this same inquiry on the reloading forum, as they may know something of the problem. Thanks

[Sunray]

You full length resize the brass? New brass is not ready to load right out of the box. It requires checking for length, trimming as required(rarely required), chamfering the case mouths and FL resizing. If you plan on using the same brass in both rifles, a totally doable thing, you must FL resize anyway.

[fguffey]

New brass is not ready to load right out of the box.

I have never found new brass that would not chamber/allow the bolt to close. The Argentine 7.65MM53 cases are the same as the 7.65MM Belgium Mauser case. I would suggest you learn how to measure the length of the cases from the shoulder/datum to the case head and learn to measure the diameter of the case at the neck, case head and at the case body/shoulder juncture.

F. Guffey

[lyman]

did you clean the chamber ?
seems an obvious question, but just wanted to make sure

if both are marked the same (caliber) and clean, yet one will not chamber the round, (check bolt face as well, ) then I would cast the chamber of the tight one and measure to be safe,

[JimF]

Check my post to your question on the Mauser forum.

[fguffey]

Check my post to your question on the Mauser forum.

A case that has case head separation and is stuck in the chamber will reduce the diameter of the chamber to the point if is impossible to chamber another case. Leecork says he wants to avoid sizing the new cases; that means he does not have a lot of case protruding from the chamber.

F. Guffey

[JimF]

True enough, Guffy . . . .

However, there may still be a broken case further forward . . . . say from the shoulder, forward to the case mouth.

Back when I shot Krags in competition, I had such a separation . . . . a 10-inch “rat-tail” file I carried in my range box, came to the rescue!

Out popped the front half of a case!

[leecork]

Found the problem, but not the solution yet. Since I have two Argentine mausers, I decided to transfer the bolt from the rifle that chambers to the mauser that wouldn't chamber the brass. Surprise, the rifle now correctly chambers the brass nicely. So I concluded that the problem is with the original bolt. This bolt is not seating the brass correctly, the brass head is not being picked up and seated in the bolt head recess. As far as finding the solution, nothing appears broken or out of place. I am still examining the bolt to try to see what is wrong. I may have to take the rifle to my favorite gunsmith. Thanks for the help I received from all you all.

[Parashooter]

Many Mauser extractors are not made with enough chamfer to allow closing the bolt on a cartridge placed directly in the chamber - they are designed to be fed only from the magazine. Some have been made (or altered) to allow direct single-loading. Examine your two extractors and you may see a difference. You might also try swapping the extractors to see if the "problem" follows.

[Sunray]

"...transfer the bolt..." You may have created another problem that makes the rifle unsafe to shoot with any ammo. Bolts are not interchangeable. They must be fitted for headspace with proper headspace gauges($70 for the set from Pacific Tool and Gauge. They're CIP spec, not SAAMI too. 6 to 8 weeks for delivery though. Made to order.).
"...brass head is not being picked up..." That's not the bolt. It's usually the mag follower spring. If you take it to a smithy buy or rent the assorted gauges yourself. If he buys 'em, you will pay for and not get to keep 'em. Oh and a Wilson Case Length gauge is not a headspace gauge.

[fguffey]

"...
transfer the bolt..." You may have created another problem that makes the rifle unsafe to shoot with any ammo. Bolts are not interchangeable.

A shooter on one of the military shooting teams made up a cute little saying about pulling the trigger. He said the firing pin drives the case to the shoulder of the chamber 'first' before the bang. I tried to get him to consider other possibilities but all I could managed to do was make him mad; and he stayed that way. After that he made up another story about the case having head space.

And now we have bolts that are not interchangeable: I purchased 4 Mausers that were sold to me as suspect. I paid $25.00 each for the complete rifles. I removed the barrels and then measured case head protrusion from the 4 barrels. The case head protrusion for each barrel was .110". I then measured from the 'C' ring to the face of the bolt; the measurements for the 4 receivers was the same.

I then took one 30 Gibbs chambered barrel and one bolt to test all 4 receivers. The clearance for each receiver was .005", the case head protrusion for the 30 Gibbs chambered barrel was .110".

I checked the clearance for each of the 4 bolts, again the clearance was .005".

I Purchased a mill from a collector/recourse man/reloader and builder of military type rifles. While I was there he informed me he was having trouble with head space and solving the problem. I informed him I could check the length of a chamber three different ways without a head space gage. Being a collector he said he had boxes of head space gages and he had no less than 20 30/06 head space but the problem? None of them fit, all of them were to long for head space length or too short for the no-go gage length.

Anyhow: I checked the length of the 30/06 chamber in his period correct 1911 Rock Island 03 with a straight handle bolt. The length of his chamber was .0025" longer than a go-gage length chamber and or .0015" shorter than a no go-gage length chamber. He has no fewer than 100 03 bolts but none of them had a straight handle. I have no fewer than 30 03A3 replacement bolts. Problem: Between us we did not have a bolt that would shorten the length of the chamber .0025", forget the straight bolt. I offered to size cases by increasing the length of the case .0025" from the shoulder to the case head. That presented another problem because he wanted to use new ammo he had already purchased. He contacted JB, I have no ideal what they decided.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I offered to check all of his 03 bolts for the effect each had on the length of the chamber, I promised we could check all of them and not find a bolt that would change the length of the chamber .001". And because it would be handy to have bolts that change the length of the chamber I checked all of my 03 bolts, same thing; none of my bolts would shorten and or lengthen the chamber.

I check the length of the 03 rifles with a feeler gage.

F. Guffey

[togor]

I believe in headspace gauges. I have a CMP '03, NS receiver with a 10-42 replacement barrel, that closes on a field gauge with a WW2 replacement BF9 bolt. That same BF9 bolt fits in the same go/no-go slot on a different CMP '03 with the J5 bolt that came with the gun. Meanwhile I picked up a NS bolt off of Ebay years ago that happily fits in the go/no-go slot for that NS receiver.

On the other hand I have a seldom-shot G43 that easily closes on a 8mm field gauge. Brass for that gun is made by FL resizing of .30-06 brass with the sizing die backed off. Like fguffy says....feeler gauges.

[Parashooter]

Problem solved. Received a PM from the OP -

". . . about my Argentine Mausers. You said that some would not accept a single cartridge loaded in the chamber. That is exactly what I was trying to do. I had heard of this problem before, but had never experienced it. I tried to load the long rifle by putting a round in the in the box magazine and it worked perfectly (no problem). I do not see any difference in the extractors between the two rifles. But something must be different. . ."

[fguffey]

". . . about my Argentine Mausers. You said that some would not accept a single cartridge loaded in the chamber. That is exactly what I was trying to do. I had heard of this problem before, but had never experienced it. I tried to load the long rifle by putting a round in the in the box magazine and it worked perfectly (no problem). I do not see any difference in the extractors between the two rifles. But something must be different. . ."

The Mauser started out as being a control feed rifle. There were no some 'do and' 'some don't'. After the Mauser came the 03, I understand Springfield never saw 98 Mauser and Springfield did it all by themselves. The 03 is claimed to be an either or rifle meaning the 03 is a control feed and a push feed rifle. It is said the shooter can shutoff the feed system with 5 rounds in the magazine and then load single rounds. To accomplish that the extractor must jump the rim of the case.

Back to the Mauser: It is possible to lock the bolt up if an attempt is made to 'push feed' a round when the extractor tries to jump the case rim.

http://www.soulofacarp.com/africanhunter/firearms/extractor_claw_01.htm

F. Guffey