Restore, conserve, or build a shooter?

[Darreld Walton]

I picked up a Winchester 1917 yesterday, sn 289026, W barrel, marked 5-18, W marked stock on forend tip, with faint boxed 3-GM-K on left side. W marked bolt, Remington mag box, Eddystone striker.
The barrel bore is a sewer pipe. Looks as if it was neglected after firing with black powder blanks or corrosive primed ammunition and not cleaned. Bore is very rough, and after several applications of fairly harsh cleaning solvents, the patches are still coming out black, and I notice severe pitting at the muzzle end. Hopes of finding a good Winchester barrel are, well, you know, though I did notice one W barrel with a 1919 date on E Pay. I DO have a good, two groove JA barrel on a sported Eddystone...
The stock has some fairly significant damage, looks like it was scraped against something, on the top left side of the stock from about halfway back on the receiver, to just short of the grip slope.
First thought is a repop stock and Criterion, just because I don't have a 1917 shooter, and not necessarily looking to buy another.
Mostly I picked this up as a fairly complete rifle, even with the significant damage, because of the Winchester connection, and to fill a hole in my Allied weapon collection.
Is my best bet to just surrender, conserve the thing, and use it on the wall, or put some significant effort into repairs, and make it serviceable? What would you do? TIA.4474844749447504475144752

[lyman]

not knowing you cleaning method\chemicals,
I would let the bore soak, probably try some of that foaming cleaner, and scrub out,
if you can still see some rifling, no issues etc, take it out and shoot a few rounds and clean again,

if you really want to get it a clean as possible, try the black powder cleaning method,
plug one end, fill with white vinegar, and let set overnight,

pour out, rinse and repeat,

caution, it will remove bluing, so be careful if you go that route,,

[pickax]

I totally agree with Lyman, keep cleaning! On the muzzle loading board I frequent, Montana extreme products get the nod for heavy fouling.
Also, since it's a WWII rebuild, the black fouling could have happened after the '40s in civilian hands with non corrosive powders. (Being optimistic I know). My early Winchester has a 2.5+ muzzle and is consistently 3-4 MOA and 100. Many other reports of pitted '17 barrels that are still acceptable for shooting accuracy.
Stock scrapes and marks just add "character" in my opinion.
Congrats on finding a basically complete OEM rifle. If it doesn't shoot, have Chuck install a Criterion and enjoy!

Edit: As I think about it more, best results of other posts I've read stated to remove the black fouling, but copper fouling helped to
smooth over or fill in the pitting. So you may want to avoid the harsh stuff, and keep stroking with brush and Hoppe's Treat it like your Krags !

[Darreld Walton]

First scrub was with Sweet's 7.62, lots of ammonia in that stuff. Didn't get any 'blue' on the wipes, but also didn't get any rust, just black. After that, an old bottle of Remington bore cleaner, third shot was with Hoppe's #9. Using a worn .30 cal bronze brush now, wrapped with 4-0 steel wool, then clean swabs till they come out white-ish. Only takes another swab with Hoppe's and the first three swabs are coal black still. The tops of the lands are very damaged, and the bottoms of the grooves still not visible.
I'll keep going with the Hoppe's, at least it gives a bit of protection overnight till I can hit it again.
I've had good luck in the past with marginal bores using .308 diameter 180 and 220 gr. Hornady round nose, the old design with the flat base and long straight jacket. I've got some loaded and ready from a failed moose hunt several years back that need to be burned up, and this is a good candidate. I'd almost consider it a 'win' if the bullets don't keyhole!
If nothing else, I'll make a point of visitin with Chuck in Cheyenne in January, probably leave it with him for a Criterion. If not a Criterion, I know of one new, in the wrap two groove JA barrel for 'real' reasonable, but I'd like to have a good shooter, and the Criterion would likely be the best choice.
Starting on the wood to see if I've got any magic left with old walnut...
Thanks a ton, Lyman and Pickax!

[Allen]

Just food for thought. I am going through that with a Marlin 1892 22LR. So far the bore is not showing any signs of pitting, just black krap on the swabs. I tried all the off the shelf cleaners including Hoppe's #9 and break free. All were absolutely worthless. I plugged the muzzle and soaked the bore with ammonia overnight also with no results. I've used chemicals way stronger than the off the shelf cleaners contain including acetone mixed with ATF and even paint remover. What works for me and the only thing that works is a lot of elbow grease brushing the bore and then firing a round or two through it then spraying with WD-40 till it comes out clear, then repeat, repeat, repeat. The bore is slowly shaping up. When I first purchased the gun the bore was so rough it was difficult to run a brush through it. It was so rough I would not attempt to shoot it except for the short rounds. Now I shoot anything but am still in the process of cleaning. Swabs still come out black with no rust. What rifling I can see looks good and can see a lot more of it now.

In your case you know the barrel will only get so good due to the observed pitting but it may be fine for a shooter.

Here is a barreled receiver (drilled and tapped) that ends in a couple of days. You could swap the parts over and re-sell what you didn't want? Lot of trouble but one possible solution for a hard to find barrel.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794016686

[RC20]

First, that is a pretty good looking gun and the stock damage is not bad. Needs cleaning up maybe. It looks to be the orignal blue and those are not common. Not a huge killer collector but has apeal.

Next, I would get a Muzzle Wear and more important throat erosion l gauge and see what those reading are. PM me if you are serious and I can help out possibly.

Steven Mathews makes one for something around $64. Its not calibrated to the 1917 but its pretty close and in the case of the TE you just want to know generally what it is.

A long loaded bullet in a sized case can tell you what you need to know as well. You want it to be at some reasonable value in relationship to COAL. If its as far out as you can get it and it still does not touch the lands then its likely a goner. Tell me what you used and I can duplicate and let you know.

If its worth even cleaning then use one of the modern cleaners that are non haz and little or now odor. The use chemistry and not brute force.

If its a goner then re-barrel with a Criterion barrel. They make really good barrels. Chuck in Denver ala Warpath is a well known barrel changer. Yours is not a super collector, so replacing the barrel is not a crime.


Keep in mind, pitting is not a death sentence. A badly eroded throat is as is a worn muzzle but I have yet to see a bad muzzle and I have seen bad throats. If you look at a modern button rifled Savage it too is ugly, but all the jerks pits etc from the button don't affect accuracy. Makes it harder to clean but not inaccurate. I have some I could not clean up with regular chemical that look like they came out of the factory with the following (keep in mind they are still Savage like but only an after market barrel maker will polish (lap) a bore and many do not -Criterion I believe does.

I have a 1920 era 1903 that has a pretty grim looking barrel (and does not clean up all that well) but it sill shoots pretty darn good.

I use Carbon Killer 2000, drizzle it on a nylon brush (it holds the stuff better) run it through, drills more on on the end, pull it back until you get something resembling clean.

At that point run it through and just repeated 5 strokes and a dry patch until it is clean.

Bore Tech Eliminator is good if you run into a copper layer (its also a good carbon cleaned but not as good as CK2K.

[pickax]

I agree that I would want a rifle that shoots. A possible way to speed up the cleaning might be using almost boiling water/dish soap mix in a bucket, submerge the muzzle, and alternate a mop and brush from the breech multiple times to suck up mix and get the black crud out.This is another method used for old nasty foreign milsurps.
The B/R Allen posted would be close age wise but 6 months later from yours. Winchester kept daily serial records, with barrel dates very close, and that B/R dates to 11/8/18. Also "bright and shiny" doesn't mean tight. I would get a pic with a M2 bullet in the muzzle. It's a good deal though at current price.
A shame to lose the original, but good you can get Chuck to fix you up if needed.

[p246]

Rebarrel and blaze away, keep old Barrel though just in case you want to put it back the way you found it.

[Merc]

This is all great advice. As long as the barrel isn’t worn at the muzzle and throat, continue using the cleaning methods they suggest. Each patch you pull through the bore and comes out blackened means' that some of the deposits are being removed. A frosted muzzle doesn’t always mean that rifle won’t shoot accurately. There are a lot of M1917 NOS parts on the Intrnet in case you find parts that are worn or don’t fit right.

[Darreld Walton]

Started again with new brass/bronze brushes, the longest I could find. Soaked the bore again with Hoppe's let it sit for about a half hour, then started scrubbing for eight or ten in/out cycles, then patches. Same-same as far as color and general nastiness of the first wipe patch, but the second shows much less, the third almost nothing, however, now I can feel the roughness if I push the patch very slowly. It appears that some of the lands ahead of the breach are coming up stronger, and surprisingly sharp, but there's still an odd looking, straight 'streak' of what appears to be pits. I've got to see if I can get my good camera to focus in the bore.
Had a terrible thought last night right before I dropped off to sleep. I was just dropping the barreled action off to have it bored to .35 Whelen.........

[Allen]

That's what my results were too. The chemicals, regardless of how strong only removed what is loose. Soaking did nothing regardless of what was used. The actual residue removal is from the brushing. In my case I was able to shoot the rifle along with the brushing, then wipe till all the loose stuff was gone then start over. I don't know if I would recommend shooting a high power rifle though even though the previous owners did so when the bore was worse. I stared off using steel brushes till I could see traces of rifling then I switched over to the brass/bronze/copper which as you know don't last very long.

Like Merc said, as long as you're getting black krap on the mops you're doing good and removing deposits. It just takes a lot of brushing. I spray WD-40 down the bore till it runs out the other end in lui of mopping and cleaning the mop every time.

Good winter project.

[Merc]

Started again with new brass/bronze brushes, the longest I could find. Soaked the bore again with Hoppe's let it sit for about a half hour, then started scrubbing for eight or ten in/out cycles, then patches. Same-same as far as color and general nastiness of the first wipe patch, but the second shows much less, the third almost nothing, however, now I can feel the roughness if I push the patch very slowly. It appears that some of the lands ahead of the breach are coming up stronger, and surprisingly sharp, but there's still an odd looking, straight 'streak' of what appears to be pits. I've got to see if I can get my good camera to focus in the bore.
Had a terrible thought last night right before I dropped off to sleep. I was just dropping the barreled action off to have it bored to .35 Whelen.........

Now that you’ve cleaned out some of the deposits, it might be a good idea to have a gunsmith look at it before going much further. The streak you’re seeing and the roughness you’re feeling could be pitting from standing water that somehow accumulated in the bore when the rifle was stored horizontally. An experienced gunsmith should be able to recognize water damage and tell you if the bore is still serviceable. A borescope camera would come in handy in your situation.

[Darreld Walton]

Now that you’ve cleaned out some of the deposits, it might be a good idea to have a gunsmith look at it before going much further. The streak you’re seeing and the roughness you’re feeling could be pitting from standing water that somehow accumulated in the bore when the rifle was stored horizontally. An experienced gunsmith should be able to recognize water damage and tell you if the bore is still serviceable. A borescope camera would come in handy in your situation.
Indeed, a bore scope would come in handy, however, I think further analysis would be futile. This one's a goner, and at the moment, it's only claim to fame is that it's original to the receiver. I'm seeing a great deal of the bottom of the grooves now, and what is very disconcerting is that the pitting is bad enough on the lands that looking down the bore resembles looking at the cross-hatch tread of an all terrain/mud tire. The only reason to fire the thing now would be, well, there isn't a legitimate reason to put a round through it!

[Merc]

I wouldn’t shoot it either. There’s no way of knowing if the bore is partially obstructed by the pitting so shooting it could be dangerous.

[RC20]

I would still do the checks. If you don't have a GS handy, Lyman makes a nice low cost boroscope.

Its not a Hawkeye but for around $170 its a great addtion.

I got one on sale a few years back, it will truly shock you how rough bareels can be.

My step dads 1903 is the worst (I bought it off him) but it still shoots decently (and the throat is about 5 on the gauge)

Barrel is awful looking. MW is fine.

While I don't push anyone to shoot, pitting in a barrel is not an issue, chamber yes. That is why that end is larger.

If the barrel is well and truly gone, then yes a re-barrel is fine.

but that is a really good looking gun and I would do all I could to ensure it was not just cosmetic.

We shot my dads 1903A3 with pits in it for a long time. Only reason we replaced the barrel was the chamber corroded (it was in salt water for 10 days at one point, believe the sale got into the metal)

[lyman]

check out endoscopes on amazon,

I have a simple one, that works on my cell phone,

install the app,
stick the flexible camera down the bore, and I get a good view of what is down there,

not a good as a hawkeye type, but works fine for what I need

[Darreld Walton]

I did take the barreled action out to the pasture, tied it off to a tire, aimed it at a berm, and fired it with a length of lanyard. Three shots. Cases look perfect, extracted easily, the ammo was LC69 M2 ball. Just the slightest resistance when I turned the bolt down on a chambered round. I didn't think to put a target up, maybe tomorrow. Prior to doing this, I hit it again with a new .303 brush, after I'd plugged and soaked the bore and soaked it overnight. Finally got 'blue' in the Hoppe's and on the patches till they turned 'grey' instead of black. After firing, I scrubbed it again and must have angered something, as what emerged after a wet patch and brush was a black, 'oozy' mess for two patches, then a bit of blue again, and patches till only a light grey showed up.
Contacted Chuck via his facebook link, fairly late, and he asked me to call tomorrow about a new barrel. He didn't mention what the barrel was, I'm assuming a Criterion. I've about decided the replacement barrel is going to be the way to go. I'll hang onto the original, keep it with the rest of the rifle, and if I turn it later, the original barrel can go with it. With ten kids, thirty two grandkids, the likelihood that it'll stay in the family is fairly high, rather than going to 'market'.

[RC20]

I would not give up on the barrel yet. The Lyman Borscope works well. Rough of not it may be fine.



Ask Chuck if he has to cut the barrel to get it off the gun?



Read the following please.

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/precision-shooting-magazine/

The is how I go about it. Firing and getting more crud out is common.

As for cleaning, Carbon Killer 2000 does a great job and a warm barrel cleans faster.

Savage barrels are rough, they don't lap them, so they get dirty fast.

I have found a nylon brush works best as it soaks up the cleaner, I either use an eye dropper to get CK2 on it in the magazine area and or run it through and soak it good out the end and then back and forth 3 or 4 times. Do that two or three times, dry patch, repeat until clean.

Dry patch at the end.

There are similar cleaners to C2K, non haz, non toxic, no odor and very focused on carbon (or copper) - beats the old cleaner all hollow as shown by a boro scope look.

If you get copper then the Bore Tehc Eliminator is very good, it does carbon to, not as good as C2K but good and works for stripping layers of carbon and copper.

It to is a non haz, non toxic and pretty odorless. I think others out there as well but that's the one I have used and settled on.

[Col. Colt]

You need to try Sharp Shooter Products "Wipe Out" and/or "Patch Out" - with or without their "Accelerator" added. I had a black bore M1917, too. I tried regular Hoppe's , old fashioned cleaning - just got black mud. I used Wipe Out - let it set overnight - got a ton of Black goop. Then foamed the bore, got a bunch of copper blue on patch. Then foamed it again - got black goo again - then foamed again - copper...
There were FIVE distinct Layers of fouling black over copper - that responded to Wipe Out - and NOT to regular cleaners. I think Sportsman's Warehouse stocks it. Check Cabelas and Brownells, or order direct from the maker in Kansas.
CC

PS - Brownell's sells a famous paste bore cleaner that is noted for this kind of problem - can't remember the name - look under bore cleaners. CC

[RC20]

You need to try Sharp Shooter Products "Wipe Out" and/or "Patch Out"

I disagree he has to and I believe I have presented some very solid evidence that the CK2k and the Boretech products work better than any of the store available items.

Bore tech works as its a good carbon cleaner as well, you it a layer of hard carbon and then the CK2k. Repeat as needed.

[Col. Colt]

If you have not tried the different Sharp Shooter Products against your favorites, how can you objectively know which is better?

I do know that the original market for Wipe Out was Bench Rest shooters who did not want ANY abrasive product or sharp implement on their expensive bores. I had very good results in getting out layers of carbon and copper - your mileage may vary. CC

[RC20]

If you read the guys writing, you will see he tried it all.

Also like him, I have a boroscope. What seemed clean was not.

YRMV

[steved66]

Cleaning: do a Google search on how to do clean a bore via electrolysis. Pretty simple to do an all you need is a steel rod, two pieces of copper wires and an old phone charger (cut end off, separate the wires)

Pitted bore: I strongly suggest to try shooting cast bullets (.310, .311) using low velocity loads (ie. 16 gr Alliant 2400). I have an M1917 with a badly pitted bore. Can't hit a 2' x 3' target frame at 50yds with M2 ball. Prints a decent group at 50yds with the aforementioned load. I also tried a load that was noted years back on Box o Truth website: regular rifle powder (ex. IMR 4895) pushing a 303 British bullet - .311 180gr Spitzer. That load cloverleafs for me at 50yds. Transformed a wall hanger into a gong ringer. Won't ever win a match but I kept my rifle original

Here's the link to the Box O Truth post about using the 303 British bullets in the M1917:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/educational-zone-79-tightening-up-the-groups-on-an-old-rifle/

[musketshooter]

It is a waste of time and effort to try and restore a sewer pipe bore.
The are a lot of new old stock barrels still out there.

[Darreld Walton]

Last shot at cleaning netted shredded woven cotton patches, leaving remnants stuck to the sharp edges of the craters in the lands. Revealed pitting that completely 'cut' the lands, and extend below the original surface of the grooves. M2 ball round in the muzzle is 'normal', about what I get when put the same bullet in a new SA 1903 barrel. Took one of the cases of a cartridge that I fired in this rifle, gently squeezed the neck until it would just hold a pulled 150 fmj, put the rim under the extractor, and pushed it into the chamber. Bullet was pushed back to just shy of the cannelure. Chamber is bright, and free of any damage. What I've got is the result of neglect and abuse.
Located a new, in the wrap, 1919 dated Winchester replacement barrel, and negotiated price, including removal/installation, and Parker type finish on all the metal. Cost would be a very close match to what the CMP Custom Shop would get for the same work, installing a Criterion. Will keep the original, take-off barrel with the rifle, just 'because'. I swapped out the non-Winchester parts, with the correct pieces that were installed on a couple of mixmaster 1917 Sporters, so the rifle is at least now "correct", as it sits.

[pickax]

Sounds like a good outcome, enjoy it.