Bump Stocks

[holdover]

Just got this..

Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker announces that the Department of Justice has amended the regulations of ATF, clarifying that bump stocks fall within the definition of "machine gun" under federal law.

The will be illegal 90 days after it is recorded in the federal register. No provision to register only to destroy or turn in.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/bump-stocks

[mike9905]

This is a horrible precident. What happened to ex post facto? I don't own a bump stock, don't want one. Those who bought them bought an ATF approved device in good faith. The government could have allowed owners to registered these with ATF or banned future sales. THIS IS SCARY. What else can they just order us to just turn in? Are ARs next?

[Vern Humphrey]

This violates TWO Amendments -- the 2nd and 5th, because it takes private property without due process or compensation.

[togor]

I doubt it will matter at the rallies. Bump stocks aren't that popular. And that's the lesson here. Legality takes a back seat when other considerations apply. It's no coincidence that bump stocks are gone after catastrophic use at a hotel venue.

[JB White]

"Fossil fueled vehicles are hereby banned. Individuals have 90 days to either destroy their vehicles according to regulations or surrender them to the DOT. Those found in non-compliance after 90 days....."

It's a new proclamation I'm making up in the name of cleaner air and climate control.

[barretcreek]

"Fossil fueled vehicles are hereby banned. Individuals have 90 days to either destroy their vehicles according to regulations or surrender them to the DOT. Those found in non-compliance after 90 days....."

It's a new proclamation I'm making up in the name of cleaner air and climate control.

JB, What will really start the peasants howling will be an absolute 100% ban on all air conditioning (except in Gov't buildings and vehicles). Between the power needed to run them and the waste heat rejected (beyond the heat removed), I think AC may pour more heat into the atmosphere than automobiles.

[JB White]

Make your own proposal. Eventually, by working together we can bring this world back to the clean air of the stone age ;)

Actually my point was the precedence being set. Smells like a trap because it's so obvious it should be overturned.

[barretcreek]

You are on track. I have always thought binary triggers and bump stocks should not have been approved by ATF as they were using terminology to skate around the intent of the law. A binary trigger will fire two rounds with one actuation of the mechanism; the trigger cannot reset without firing if there is a round in the chamber.

So ATF approved the devices thinking the approval might be reversed?

[Sunray]

"...takes private property without..." Neither The Donald or the ATF care about stuff like that. The Donald wants the 5 billion for his wall. And the ATF has done this before.
"...an ATF approved device..." Unelected civil servants should not have the jurisdiction or authority to approve or disapprove anything.

[JB White]

You are on track. I have always thought binary triggers and bump stocks should not have been approved by ATF as they were using terminology to skate around the intent of the law. A binary trigger will fire two rounds with one actuation of the mechanism; the trigger cannot reset without firing if there is a round in the chamber.

So ATF approved the devices thinking the approval might be reversed?

No, it was approved based on a technicality. The current ban could be overruled, but it's giving the impression of the Trump Administration at least trying to do something. so...
If it isn't overturned the precedence has been established for confiscation without compensation.
If overturned, the bump stocks will then be added next go-round as leverage to insure other bans in the future.

All this is doing is making certain we have a fight on our hands one way or another. Sly law. Bad law.

Binary triggers are dangerous in the wrong hands. I know...I know....Skeet and trap shooters love 'em when used as intended. Doesn't make them safe among the general population when overall instinct is to release from the trigger for no-shoot.

[Allen]

"...an ATF approved device..." Unelected civil servants should not have the jurisdiction or authority to approve or disapprove anything.

The BATF approval means that it qualifies under existing laws. They didn't make the laws nor have that authority. In this case machine guns or devices that can make a weapon fire as a machine gun. The law was passed in 1934 I believe as a result of the gangsters outgunning the police. While most of us personally do not and would not have approved of them our tax dollars went to an agency that did. Time for them to admit their mistake and make it good.

As said before, I suppose trigger cranks and bump stocks are so cumbersome they prohibit the weapon from having any accuracy and usefulness so they were thought of as a novelty. Still they were legal and people bought them in good faith. Owners should be allowed to register them for free or be compensated for their return. Anything else is anti-constitutional, police power, communism or over-reach of the government.

Since criminals are not affected by laws, changes or rules no demand as such should ever be put on the general public.

[JB White]

Allen, you're making sense again. Those who will not surrender will hide them only to appear on the black market later on. There are no means available to trace current owners. If they (ATF) want them off the market they should be bought off at the most recent MSRP. A lot cheaper than establishing another legal boondoggle.

[togor]

Registration? Beware of unintended consequences.

[Sandpebble]

Gee.... who we gonna blame for this one ..... ??

[S.A. Boggs]

Gee.... who we gonna blame for this one ..... ??

Any thought's?:icon_scratch:
Sam

[lyman]

Allen, you're making sense again. Those who will not surrender will hide them only to appear on the black market later on. There are no means available to trace current owners. If they (ATF) want them off the market they should be bought off at the most recent MSRP. A lot cheaper than establishing another legal boondoggle.

some could be traced thru credit card receipts and maybe store receipts, (if anyone kept them),

of course, tracing them in tha way is outside the jurisdiction of the ATF

[Allen]

some could be traced thru credit card receipts and maybe store receipts, (if anyone kept them),

of course, tracing them in tha way is outside the jurisdiction of the ATF

And after all that trouble if they caught up with you, you could always say "I sold that long ago" or "I destroyed it".

[JB White]

some could be traced thru credit card receipts and maybe store receipts, (if anyone kept them),

of course, tracing them in tha way is outside the jurisdiction of the ATF

ATF is Treasury Department. They certainly have the means to do it. Still, the resources and man-hours involved would be well beyond the total buy off costs.
Could they make arrangements to do it via vouchers on income tax returns?

[lyman]

ATF is Treasury Department. They certainly have the means to do it. Still, the resources and man-hours involved would be well beyond the total buy off costs.
Could they make arrangements to do it via vouchers on income tax returns?

ATF is several branchs, the compliance guys are DOJ, some other positions are Treasury,

and they don't communicate well among themselves,



easiest was would be to start at the source (us made or imported) and follow the trail to the retailers,
after that, I am not sure how long a retailer would keep a detailed enough receipt (couple years, maybe 7 for tax purposes??)

my Brother and I own a small business, we don't keep that detail of receipts, for sales, no need to , (just report the income, and sales tax)
I think I sold one bumpstock for a friend, via gunbroker,
they (gunborker) don't save any listing (other than the item number) past 90 days

[JB White]

Unlike my reaction to the (now expired) hi-cap magazine ban, I didn't rush out to buy any bump stocks. Bottom line is this is a badly written law. I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to own a bump stock, but something like this is the first tentacle of a growing demon if allowed to stand.

[barretcreek]

Bottom line is this is a badly written law.

+1 JB. As you say the problem is where will it lead. The 1986 law prohibiting new 'machine guns' established the ability to ban a type of weapon.