1865 1st Allin Cadet.

[Carlsr]

Found this 1st Allin Cadet on Collectors firearms. I have Dick Hosmer's book The 58 and 50 caliber rifles. Seems to be correct to me but was wondering if anyone here could take a look at it?
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/1865-first-allin-conversion-2-band-springfield-trapdoor-58-rf-al4488/
Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

Hello Carl,

The caveat on those arms is that we are still not completely sure who did them, or when. Al Frasca, for one, is VERY skeptical.

If there were only 270 done, I've seen (maybe 5 or 6, plus my own) way more than my share.

That one has been, in my opinion, overcleaned (for example, breechblock support should match block, not barrel) and spiffed up, including a large wood patch above the lockplate, which I do not believe SA would have done. Speaking of the lockplate, M1865s were USUALLY (if not always) dated 1865 and will have the extra milling on the inside. It's pretty, but almost TOO pretty, but at least the price isn't outlandish - as it is with much of their stuff. Perhaps they know more than they are telling and just trying to move it?

[Carlsr]

Thanks Dick.
I thought it was over cleaned myself but just wanted an opinion from those who know way more than myself. Like you said the price isn't outlandish like most of their rifles but every once in a while I check their site just for an 1870 rifle. Not sure how long this one has been there??? I did not notice the patch so like you said, they know more than they are telling. Thanks for all the information! I love your books also!!

[Kragrifle]

It should have the “welded” on front band, filled in band spring inletting, and I seem to remember that it should have the later SWP cartouche. I have two of these one bright and one blued in many of the parts ,

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Always thought these were interesting. J. DeChristopher described this musket in one of his early catalogs. May be able to find mine.

[Carlsr]

Was not aware that the front band was welded on. What would be the purpose? Surely you would not be able to disassemble the rifle once it is welded on????

[Edatbeach]

From the info I’ve seen, and the examples I have handled (and 1 I have) these are not Springfield Armory cadets. There is no mention of any but one example in armory quarterly reports. The quality is not up to armory standards: only the last 6 or 8 inches of the barrel is tapered to fit a bayonet, the front sight is not dovetailed on, the end of the ramrod is roughly finished, and the muzzle crown is unlike any other Springfield Armory gun.

[Dick Hosmer]

Whoever did the work cut the sling swivel off the old lower (middle? my mind is mush at present) band and brazed (not welded) it to the new upper band. My gun, like Ed's, is plain at the lower end, not threaded as Al says it should be - which is one of his main complaints. The 'crown' on mine is more like a tapered reamer was run into the bore.

[Carlsr]

Merry Christmas!! So, it is the sling swivel that is brazed to the band not the band brazed to the barrel? I took it as Kragrifle said it was a welded on band not swivel. I did see the patch you mentioned, thought it was a crack ahead of the lock plate. Could this have been replaced at some point due to that area of the stock being thinned out for the ejector?

[Dick Hosmer]

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Yes, the sling swivel was simply relocated. I would take some slight issue with Ed's statement about the conversion not being of SA quality. While some features ARE (very) slightly "different" there is nothing crude or ugly about the work, like - for example - the Bannerman whack-offs with thinned wrists and poorly spaced bands. THOSE guns are crap. You can barely see the band patch on my "mystery cadet", and the swivel looks like it was meant to be there. Only real flaw is the non-threaded rod (which is what I meant in post #7 rather than the "gun" being plain at the lower end!)

As to the lockplate area, yes, the wood is critically thin at that point, and a great many, really most, specimens show at least some damage, so often so that it is basically accepted as a fact of life unless you want to spend a LOT of money on a First Allin. That one must have had a severe chip out to cause such a patch, and I do not believe it was done at time of shortening. The rifle at Collectors is really not that appealing to me.

[Kragrifle]

I dug these two 2 band first Allin conversions out to show what I have seen. Both have the brazed on front swivel, filled in band spring slot, proportioned band spacing and full figured wood around the lock plates. Both have the swelled type ram rods though neither has any threaded ends. The nicer of the two is finished in the bright with an 1865 lock plate and both SWP and ESA cartouches. The other appears to have been finished blue and has an 1862 lock plate. This musket has no inspector marks and appears to have a filled in repair in the wood opposite the lock plate.

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[Kragrifle]

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[Dick Hosmer]

Aside from the fact that both styles of sighting notch occur, it is interesting that the wood ahead of the uppper band is not the same. Are barrels exactly the same length? To me the fact that the 1865 Cadets do show both styles of sight notch is a "strike" against them being SA. If they were, they should all be the same, unless they were converted from 1865s rather than muskets. It's a grand game - and we don't have ALL the answers!:eusa_wall::eusa_wall:

[Carlsr]

Thanks for the photos Kragrifle. I would have to agree with Dick about the wood past the upper band, one is longer than the other. Seems that the cleaning rods are different lengths as well due to the location of the swelled area. Looks like one is higher than the other. They are nicer looking than the one on collectors who by the way has not responded to my questions as of yet.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks to a gentleman's tip a few years back I am ahead with Collectors - they let an 1870 Trials rifle (rear sight tight to SHORT receiver, like the carbine) slip through their fingers for the price of a standard one. Condition's not the greatest but they are VERY scarce.

[Edatbeach]

Kragrifle, Can you comment on the apparent length differences of the forestock in front of the band? Are the barrels the same length with the same type crown?

[Kragrifle]

Muskets, barrels and cleaning rods are all the same length. Both front barrel bands are identical. The bright musket confirms exactly to the description by Joe DeChristopher in his early catalog. The inspector cartouches of both Porter and Allin on this musket, as well as the overall workmanship convince me this is a Springfield creation. As to the blued version, the workmanship is equally as good (note the front band and filled in band spring slot). The lock plate on this musket is dated 1862, where the bright musket is dated 1865 (first Allin)-significance?

I once had an 1868 TD that was blued. Was this a cleaned and repaired musket? Was bluing used for later guns as the 45 cal rifles were being produced?

As for the different band spacing-I have no idea. In fact, this is the first time I ever laid these muskets side by side.

[Dick Hosmer]

I guess the next thing for those of us who own such guns to do is to report their band spacing dimension(s) - with the assumption that the lower band is cast in stone.

[Kragrifle]

Do I see a third book in the works?

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm not sure. I'm pretty happy with "More" and it is essentially "complete enough" though with electronic printing I can certainly add small updates as needed.

My current project (2020?) is to revise and update "58/50" to electronic format AND make it a perfect match (size, font, layout, etc.) with "More". I've accumulated some new material on the 68/68s, and a couple of guns for which I originally had to beg photos.

Beyond that, I'm just not sure. Age, health, and other issues could play a part. I MAY (having recently come into posession of a huge un-published manuscript and massive serial number archive) attempt to CO-author (if the legalities can be worked out) a book on the "common" models - again in matching format to the other two, just to round out the trilogy as it were, though that horse has been flogged a-plenty, and the audience is definitely shrinking. Of course, no one makes any money at this, it's just "fun" and the work keeps you young.

[Kragrifle]

Indeed!

[Kragrifle]

Just picked up another one of these muskets. Band spacing is the same as the shortest distance from muzzle to band. This new one even has the threaded tip cleaning rod. Photos to follow in a few days.

[Dick Hosmer]

Will look forward to seeing them. The guns are a bit of a puzzle - that's for sure. Al says they are NOT an original SA build, and he may well be right. The thinned ones with middle band left in position are DEFINITELY bogus (as well as just being butt-ugly) but the tweeners are not - IMHO - yet settled for sure.

When I thin down (soon) I'll be keeping my two-bander as my 1st Allin example, and selling my 3-bander (which is a restoration, and will be priced accordingly).

[Kragrifle]

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[Kragrifle]

The thing that is still a puzzle is the slightly longer nose on one of the two muskets posted earlier. This musket has the shorter nose which happens to be the length on the standard three band muskets. The sighting groove is the same on all three muskets and is the same groove on my three band first Allin. All three of these muskets are well done with original proportioned wrists and flats on the stocks. I hesitate to differ with Al, but my take is that these are Springfield produced muskets along the lines of the two band Second Allins likely altered to more closely approximate the contemporary 45/70 trapdoors.

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Just noticed the slight difference in the sight notch! Will pull these muskets out and compare again.

[Fred]

When I thin down (soon) I'll be keeping my two-bander as my 1st Allin example, and selling my 3-bander (which is a restoration, and will be priced accordingly).

Dick, I’d be keenly interested in your #62 if there ever comes a time that you decide to part with it.

[Kragrifle]

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Photos of the three 2 band First Allins