View Full Version : Antique RR watch
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I acquired a minty Railroad grade pocket watch recently that’s real eye candy. Thought you guys might enjoy seeing it. I consider old American guns and watches to be great engineering works of art.
The watch is a 1939 size 16 Elgin Grade 540 B. W. Raymond signature with 23 jewels and a Montgomery dial. It appears to be 100% original and is running well.
The old RR standard for accuracy during this watches heyday was plus or minus 30 seconds a week. It was gaining about 30 seconds a day so I let it run for several days and then made some minor adjustments to the regulator to slow down the balance speed a little and it’s now tracking my quartz standard very nicely. The photo of the movement shows the regulator is almost full fast. It’s now closer to mid scale. The movement is clean and corrosion free. This watch has obviously led a pampered life and will continue to do so while it’s in my possession.
www.dollartimes.com
Here’s a cool site. Open it and click on “Inflation Calculator.” My old Elgin sold for somewhere around $150 in 1939. Fill in those numbers to see what $150 is worth in today’s dollars.
Very nice time piece i have my grandfathers watch
I never knew my grandfather. He was a cop in Pittsburgh from 1900 to 1925 and no-one knows what happened to his watch, service pistol, uniform, etc. I do have my dad’s Elgin that he got on his 16th birthday in 1925. I also have my wife’s grandmother’s Elgin that she got on her 16th birthday in 1907.
That is a beauty, thanks for posting.
Sweet watch.
Over the past few years I acquired a couple of antique heirloom watches, my family never apparently sold or gave away anything. My favorite of the two is a 1911 Waltham Crescent St. It's a lever set 21 Jewel adjusted to five positions but with a double roller but without the big spade hands that most railroads required. It keeps very nice time and I wear it sometimes when I dress up.
One of my best friends was a famous (and I say that advisedly) F.B.I. Agent. His father and mother live in Opelousas Louisiana are quite spry. The old man 96 and sharp as a tack. When he got out of High School at barely 17 he went to the railroad station and offered to work there as a laborer for free in exchange to learn telegraphy. Well within a year he was working full time and had to buy an approved watch which in his case was a Hamilton 992s which is in a display dome on his bookcase. It still runs and keeps time. He had an interesting military career in WWII but that's another story.
Art,
The RR watch evolved over time and some watches were acceptable at some RRs but not at others. Standardized time keeping rules changed all of that and by the 1920s through the 1960s, the American RR watch was the world’s best watch.
Your 1914 Crescent Street model was probably an acceptable RR watch when it was made. It fulfilled most of the basic requirements. The setting lever located under the front bezel was the most common requirement. Watches were set and sealed by the Timekeeper to prevent accidental time setting disturbances.
My oldest is an 11 jewel 1869 Waltham key winder in a big coin silver hunter case that still runs and keeps perfect time and the highest jewel count watch is a 1966 Seiko, 26 jewels automatic wristwatch that I bought at an estate sale for $5 and wear every day. I’m sure these old boys will still be capable of keeping time a few hundred years from now.
Merc
You are correct, and not every railroad had the same standard.
The lever set was universally required in railroad watches by the 1890s because of a couple of really bad train wrecks caused by watches that had stopped or were way off. Most railroads prohibited their employees from even setting their watches. My buddie's dad mentioned that the watch had to go to a railroad approved jeweler once a month and he was given a loaner for the couple of days it was in to be checked and set. He also said his watch was so expensive, I think he mentioned $175.00 1939 dollars that he had to pay it off in installments.
Is your 1869 Waltham a Model 1857, if so old Abe Lincoln carried one of those.
Interesting thing about Waltham, they developed the first watches using interchangeable parts which bought quality watches into the hands of the regular guy. Before that any watch cost a caboodle of money and only the truly wealthy could buy one. A quality American watch built on the American System, or as it was sometimes called the Armory System could compete with any watch in the world, but I suspect you know all this stuff.
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Here’s photos of the 1869 18s 11j American Watch Co. (Waltham) 1857 model, P.S. Bartlett signature watch so, it’s the same model that was owned and carried by President Lincoln. I read about the message a watchmaker scribed on the full plate of Lincoln’s watch once the Civil War began but didn’t realize that it was an 1857 model.
According to www.dollartimes.com, $175 in 1939 equaled $3082 in today’s dollars.
I bought a Rolex GMT Master for $210.00 from the Howard AFB BX in the mid ‘60’s. It is currently being resold at various jewelers for between 7 and 10000. I was never impressed with its accuracy.
You spent the equivalent of $1650 in today’s dollars for that Rolex in 1965. They were selling for a lot more than your purchase price in the civilian world. Figure on getting half of it’s current retail value if you ever decide to sell it. That’s still a sweet return on your investment. Rolex watches are expensive to get serviced and aren’t really known for their performance. I believe they’re sealed with dry nitrogen so opening the case to adjust the regulator exposes the movement to the elements.
I bought a Rolex GMT Master for $210.00 from the Howard AFB BX in the mid ‘60’s. It is currently being resold at various jewelers for between 7 and 10000. I was never impressed with its accuracy.
You aren't the only one. I have known several Rolex owners who have told me that their watch was not only less accurate than a quartz watch but less accurate than some mechanical watches. I have a cousin who has a Rolex President who I gave a very pretty cleaned up and repaired Elgin 7 jewel (that's 7 not 17) hunter case ladies watch from about 1900 and she's told me it keeps comparable time than her Rolex. The women, especially, I know who've bought, or more accurately been gifted, Rolex watches have no problem saying they're primarily pieces of jewelry and status symbols.
Also, as Merc said, mechanical watches do need to be serviced; just like anything else mechanical. All my Waltham needed to be put back in running condition was to be cleaned and lubricated by a good watchmaker.
Fun thread.
This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
44910
This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
44910
Well, if it's an heirloom watch and it keeps good time it would be worth something to me. When I wear a wristwatch I wear my father-in-law's old Hamilton Thin-o-Matic he got as a thirty year award at Exxon (then Esso) back when you actually got a gold watch. It's value for resale is almost all in the 14k gold case. But it has a good Swiss micro rotor automatic movement and keeps excellent time. My father-in-law was actually a good old boy so I'm glad to have it.
I have a few 7j watches that run well. One is a sweet running 1887 18s 7j Elgin with a heavy crystal. I was impressed by the size of the case. It’s huge! I bought it at an estate sale (where else?) several years ago for a few bucks and sent it to be cleaned and oiled. The watchmaker commented that it has almost no wear in the pivots and bushings. The 7j watches were the ones that most could afford but weren’t supposed to work as well or last as long as the higher quality watches. The 7j watches did OK and many are still working just fine today.
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Now, the “Dollar Watches” are a different story. No jewels, all bushings, all stamped parts, no spare parts, not fixable, not adjustable, they stop working after the oil dries up in a few years and get tossed and buy a new one.
This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
44910
The dial on your dad’s wristwatch was the type of dial that was used on RR grade pocket watches for the Canadian railroads.
Longines produced a 17j RR grade wristwatch, possibly in the 1940s, that was approved by the Canadian Pacific RR. It was known as the model RR280. The the jewel count, model and serial number should be stamped on the movement.
Pocket watches stayed popular with the RRs into the 1960s because they easier to work on and the big black numbers on a white dial and black hands were easier to read at night. Being carried in a pocket on a chain offered more protection against accidental damage. They were in use for nearly 90 years before the first wristwatches were approved for RR service.
I always check to see what something sells for on eBay to determine its value.
Where can I get oil to lube a grandmother clock? My mother kept a small medicine bottle with oil in it with a roll of newspaper in it as a wick, the oil she had a long time assume it was whale oil, it's used up now so what can I get to replace the oil? The oil evaporates up into the works.
thanks kurt
Go here:
www.esslinger.com
Type “clock oil” in the search bar. The newer clock oils won’t evaporate.
[QUOTE=dryheat;548246]This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
Google Longines RR280 wrist watches. They show your dad’s watch on Fratellowatches.com.
This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
44910
Try this for an article on your dad's watch.
http://watchexpertise.com/?p=35
I have a few 7j Now, the “Dollar Watches” are a different story. No jewels, all bushings, all stamped parts, no spare parts, not fixable, not adjustable, they stop working after the oil dries up in a few years and get tossed and buy a new one.
Speaking of which; my favorite aunt's father was trained as a printer but made "the long ride" from Paris, Texas to Lincoln, New Mexico with John Chism, he also spent some time with the Texas Rangers, was a bodyguard for Governor Hobby, later ran for office and served two terms in The Texas House of Representatives before going into ranching and editing a newspaper. His time as a muscle for hire/professional gunman for Chisum, the Rangers and as a bodyguard gave him a different perspective on time pieces. Since any watch he wore was going to be exposed to very rough treatment and the elements he bought the cheapest pocket watches he could find, which usually meant Westclox. When they quit running he tossed them and bought another Westclox for a couple of bucks. My cousin has a westclox which was almost surely his. He continued with "dollar watches" long after he became more respectable.
Dry Heat,
Go on eBay and search for a Longines RR280. There’s one currently up for sale. Appearantly, they’re not very common. The dial and hands on your dad’s watch are different than the one that’s for sale. Yours looks like it could be a much older version and the numbers and hands appear to be luminous which you can confirm by exposing them to high intensity light or a black light. The back cover will need to be removed to confirm that it’s a RR280 model. If the cover is threaded with notches around the edge, you should be able to buy the tool to remove the back cover at Esslinger. The serial number will be needed to determine the manufacturing date and gather all available information. Once you confirm that it’s an early RR280, then consider getting it appraised.
Johnny P
01-08-2019, 04:42
This one was $202 in 1962 at Zales. I wore it for many years and then my dad wore it for several more before I retired it for a GMT II.
https://i.postimg.cc/mgFdnvJJ/ROL1.jpg
My dad's watch does have the radium hands. I'm curious that it doesn't have the wings. The back is just a thick curved cover. I'm going to look into it a little more. I expect it's just a plain old watch, but that's OK. Thanks for all the links, I've done some reading today about watches.
This one was $202 in 1962 at Zales. I wore it for many years and then my dad wore it for several more before I retired it for a GMT II.
https://i.postimg.cc/mgFdnvJJ/ROL1.jpg
Looks like it’s in good shape for a daily worn watch.
Johnny P
01-09-2019, 05:57
The links are solid stainless steel instead of stampings, and if worn snug on the wrist there is very little wear. Some like to wear them loose to let them hang out from under their shirt sleeve which does cause more wear.
Just thinking, a lot of mechanical watch fanciers are also gun people. I have a friend who posts regularly on a watch site who says that it (the site) has prohibited gun pics because of the high number of people who posted pictures of their favorite watches with their favorite firearms.
I guess like me there are a lot of "steampunk" people out there who just like old mechanical stuff. I have old watches, old manual typewriters and my favorite guns are my old guns. Even my favorite fishing reels are older models.
Just thinking, a lot of mechanical watch fanciers are also gun people. I have a friend who posts regularly on a watch site who says that it (the site) has prohibited gun pics because of the high number of people who posted pictures of their favorite watches with their favorite firearms.
I guess like me there are a lot of "steampunk" people out there who just like old mechanical stuff. I have old watches, old manual typewriters and my favorite guns are my old guns. Even my favorite fishing reels are older models.
I’m glad to have finally found someone who can appreciate my situation. I’ve been around antiques for most of my life. I grew up living in an 1849 house that was built by a wealthy abolitionist. He offered sanctuary to runaway slaves in the 1850s and 1860s so the house was famously known in Pittsburgh as a station on the “Underground Railroad.” I enjoy old guns and especially old watches because they were both built without the modern manufacturing methods that are used today. Saturday morning estate sales? I’m like a kid in a candy store. My game room is full of military antiques and “stuff” that I picked up over the past 60 years (sounds cluttered, but it really isn’t).
One of the most interesting things I have is an old photo album from 1919 that I bought for $40 in an antique store in Braddock, PA which is just outside Pittsburgh and within a quarter of a mile of The Edgar Thompson Works, US Steel Corp. which was Andrew Carnegie’s first steel mill. The album is loaded with military and civilian photos taken at Kelly Air Field in San Antonio, TX. The command was known as the 94th Aero Squadron. Congratulate yourself if you knew that the 94th was Eddie Rickenbacker’s old outfit. No pics of Eddie, but several of General Pershing and several of old airplanes, motorcycles and cars. I posted photos here shortly after I bought it. I’ll see if I can find it and update it so it will once again be on page one.
The album photo pages have expired. So, here are a few of the more interesting pics.
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barretcreek
01-09-2019, 06:06
This has been a very interesting thread. I have a bunch of old pocket watches and I would like to know some sources to check to find out about them.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Jiminvirginia
01-09-2019, 06:33
Back in the late 1970's I worked for what was left of the Waltham Watch Company. There were a couple of old timers working there that would find parts for the old watches tucked in corners around the building. When they accumulated enough parts they would assemble a working watch and sell it. Regret not getting something. When I was there the company made aircraft clocks for the military. I remember an old gentleman who worked the old Swiss gear cutting machines. He was the last man in the world that could operate those machines. No joke. He was in his mid 80's when I knew him. Tried to retire but the company enticed him back to try and train a replacement. His only break from the business was when he went off to fight in WW 1. I can still picture him stepping off the elevator puffing on his pipe.
Jiminvirginia
01-09-2019, 07:21
More to my story. When I worked there the company was Waltham Precision Instruments. The company was in one end of the huge Waltham Watch building. As I said, we made aircraft clocks, the A 13 I remember well. The other was the A 11 I believe. There was also a timer for underwater demolition. We still used the original machinery. Some pushing the 100 year old mark or more. A bank of machines was driven by leather belts by a common motor. Originally this was done by a steam engine.
There was decades worth of gunk on workbenches and machines. Every so often I would dig in that gunk and find old watch parts. I would present my findings to my boss, a lady in her 70's who had worked there all her life. She would take a quick look with her loupe and say "oh thats a minute hand pinion for our 1932 Model xx ladies watch". Amazing. I respected those old watchmakers. They always told me the really good watchmakers were buried up on the hill.
This has been a very interesting thread. I have a bunch of old pocket watches and I would like to know some sources to check to find out about them.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Give me some mfr names.
More to my story. When I worked there the company was Waltham Precision Instruments. The company was in one end of the huge Waltham Watch building. As I said, we made aircraft clocks, the A 13 I remember well. The other was the A 11 I believe. There was also a timer for underwater demolition. We still used the original machinery. Some pushing the 100 year old mark or more. A bank of machines was driven by leather belts by a common motor. Originally this was done by a steam engine.
There was decades worth of gunk on workbenches and machines. Every so often I would dig in that gunk and find old watch parts. I would present my findings to my boss, a lady in her 70's who had worked there all her life. She would take a quick look with her loupe and say "oh thats a minute hand pinion for our 1932 Model xx ladies watch". Amazing. I respected those old watchmakers. They always told me the really good watchmakers were buried up on the hill.
That is a fascinating story. Very few people are fortunate enough to even see the inside of some of these historic watch factories before they were demolished. Those factories produced the best watches in the world. It must have been like stepping back in time.
Johnny P
01-09-2019, 08:03
Won't be any rubber watches in this.
http://watchtime.me/life-style/vintage/article/1058/top-picks-from-christie-s-dubai-important-watches-auction
Won't be any rubber watches in this.
http://watchtime.me/life-style/vintage/article/1058/top-picks-from-christie-s-dubai-important-watches-auction
More eye candy. Thanks for sharing.
By the way, the $202 that you paid for your Rolex in 1962 would be worth about $1660 in today’s dollars. Does it still run well?
This has been a very interesting thread. I have a bunch of old pocket watches and I would like to know some sources to check to find out about them.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
There is a lot online about all of the major companies that made these watches, Elgin, Waltham, Illinois, Hamilton etc. You will be able to find serial number information that will allow you to date your watches. The number you want is on the movement not the case. I had one of the watches that had a picture of one of my cousin's great aunt's picture cleaned up for him- it runs strong now-and checked the date against the Waltham records. It was made between March and August 1890. There are also a lot of watch web site forums like watchuseek. late 19th - mid 20th century technology was often very durable. You may find that some, maybe all of the old watches you have only need a good cleaning and lube job to be put in running condition. Good quality vintage pocket watches, and I mean the fully jeweled 17j and up watches can often be had cleaned, lubed and running strong from dealers from $500.00 - $600.00 dollars, sometimes less, unless the cases are solid gold or silver. Pot luck watches on E-Bay or Amazon for a lot less. I know a fellow whose everyday watch is a fine Hamilton 992 and he isn't the only one. Pocket watches are becoming somewhat fashionable again with fans ranging from the steampunk types to old west enthusiasts, to guys stylin' in the GQ crowd.
One word to the wise. I found out the hard way that with watches, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It's easy to get at the "innards" of most antique pocket watches. Beware of attempting any adjustments yourself, it can be tempting but can end badly....one who knows :icon_e_surprised: :icon_redface:!!!
Happy hunting.
There is a lot online about all of the major companies that made these watches, Elgin, Waltham, Illinois, Hamilton etc. You will be able to find serial number information that will allow you to date your watches. The number you want is on the movement not the case. I had one of the watches that had a picture of one of my cousin's great aunt's picture cleaned up for him- it runs strong now-and checked the date against the Waltham records. It was made between March and August 1890. There are also a lot of watch web site forums like watchuseek. late 19th - mid 20th century technology was often very durable. You may find that some, maybe all of the old watches you have only need a good cleaning and lube job to be put in running condition. Good quality vintage pocket watches, and I mean the fully jeweled 17j and up watches can often be had cleaned, lubed and running strong from dealers from $500.00 - $600.00 dollars, sometimes less, unless the cases are solid gold or silver. Pot luck watches on E-Bay or Amazon for a lot less. I know a fellow whose everyday watch is a fine Hamilton 992 and he isn't the only one. Pocket watches are becoming somewhat fashionable again with fans ranging from the steampunk types to old west enthusiasts, to guys stylin' in the GQ crowd.
One word to the wise. I found out the hard way that with watches, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. It's easy to get at the "innards" of most antique pocket watches. Beware of attempting any adjustments yourself, it can be tempting but can end badly....one who knows :icon_e_surprised: :icon_redface:!!!
Happy hunting.
All good advice. Here are two sites that can be helpful for research purposes:
www.elginwatches.org.
Elgin was, by far, the largest watch manufacturer. They were in business from the mid 1860s through the mid 1960s and produced one half of all the watches made in the US. They made good watches although you’ll usually pay more for Hamilton, Waltham, Illinois, etc. I’ve not seen that much of a difference in quality or performance to justify higher prices. Maybe it’s just the quantity of watches that Elgin produced that’s driving the price difference. The records for Elgin watches were well preserved, as you’ll see when browsing the site.
Elgin and all others can be found here:
www.pocketwatchdatabase.com
Disclaimer - The following are repair organizations that I have found on the internet. I have not used either in the past so I can’t make any recommendations based on past experience. My watchmaker is no longer in business, so I will be using one or both in the future.
This is a repair site in Michigan that quotes their standard cleaning and lube prices for various types of watches in advance on their site. Their prices for servicing running watches are reasonable. They have, or can buy replacement parts for most watches and they also sell railroad grade pocket watches. I find browsing through the “watches for sale” pages entertaining. They sell a lot of RR watches for around $400 to $600, but that includes a detailed disassembly, cleaning and lubrication which itself is a $100 value.
www.northernpartners.com
Here is another repair service.
www.pocketwatchrepair.com
Adjusting a slow or fast watch by moving the regulator isn’t really difficult if you take your time and use an eye loup to see what you’re doing. Regulators are there to regulate the speed of the balance wheel by shortening or lengthening the hair spring. Regulators are usually large and self explanatory. Move it towards the “F” to gain balance speed or move it towards the “S” to slow it down. Use the proper tool to make the adjustment and be careful to stay away from the balance wheel which is the most delicate part of the watch. Most mechanical non-RR grade watches are considered calibrated if they gain or lose 30 seconds a day although, with patience, most clean 17j, 21j and 23j watches can be calibrated to a finer degree.
Johnny P
01-10-2019, 06:09
More eye candy. Thanks for sharing.
By the way, the $202 that you paid for your Rolex in 1962 would be worth about $1660 in today’s dollars. Does it still run well?
It does. Occasionally I will get it out and let it run for a week or so.
It does. Occasionally I will get it out and let it run for a week or so.
If you look for 1960s and 1970s Oyster Perpetuals on eBay, you’ll see them selling at auction for about what you paid for it in today’s dollars.
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Here’s photos of the 1869 18s 11j American Watch Co. (Waltham) 1857 model, P.S. Bartlett signature watch so, it’s the same model that was owned and carried by President Lincoln. I read about the message a watchmaker scribed on the full plate of Lincoln’s watch once the Civil War began but didn’t realize that it was an 1857 model.
President Lincoln apparently had two watches. One was and English made movement in a gold American case that was being repaired when the Civil War began. The watchmaker decided to engrave a message under the dial that was discovered 100 years later. He also wore an 11j 18 size American Waltham, Wm. Ellery signature model 1857 pocket watch.
All good advice. Here are two sites that can be helpful for research purposes:
Adjusting a slow or fast watch by moving the regulator isn’t really difficult if you take your time and use an eye loup to see what you’re doing. Regulators are there to regulate the speed of the balance wheel by shortening or lengthening the hair spring. Regulators are usually large and self explanatory. Move it towards the “F” to gain balance speed or move it towards the “S” to slow it down. Use the proper tool to make the adjustment and be careful to stay away from the balance wheel which is the most delicate part of the watch. Most mechanical non-RR grade watches are considered calibrated if they gain or lose 30 seconds a day although, with patience, most clean 17j, 21j and 23j watches can be calibrated to a finer degree.
True.
In some watches the regulator is moved by a very fine screw that can actually be a bit difficult to see or a roller system. The Elgin had the roller deal which is easy to work with if you know what it is. As Merc said about the right tool = make sure how the regulator moves and get the right tool for the one you have even if it's just a small pointed tool for a freely moving regulator. If the regulator doesn't move relatively easily and you want the time adjusted it's a good idea to take it to a pro.
If you get a good working relationship with a watchmaker you may find that an occasional adjustment will be made gratis.
It does. Occasionally I will get it out and let it run for a week or so.
This is a requirement to keep any mechanical watch running. If they are just left sitting for years they will often stop running or not run well until they are cleaned and lubricated. There are two watches I wear, the Hamilton Thin-o-matic (I feel a bit like Don Draper when I have that one on,) and an Omega pocket watch made in the 1980s I sometimes wear with jeans. I seldom wear the antique Waltham or Walter Starcke but I do fully wind them and let them run down once or twice a month.
True.
In some watches the regulator is moved by a very fine screw that can actually be a bit difficult to see or a roller system. The Elgin had the roller deal which is easy to work with if you know what it is. As Merc said about the right tool = make sure how the regulator moves and get the right tool for the one you have even if it's just a small pointed tool for a freely moving regulator. If the regulator doesn't move relatively easily and you want the time adjusted it's a good idea to take it to a pro.
If you get a good working relationship with a watchmaker you may find that an occasional adjustment will be made gratis.
Correct - Understanding how regulators work and how to get them to move is essential. If in doubt, ask a watchmaker.
Correct again - I have established email contact with the watchmaker at Northern Partners in MI and he shared some advice about the regulator on my Elgin RR watch. I’ve not sent him any watches to work on yet but he’s going to be my first choice.
Johnny P
01-10-2019, 10:27
My wife's mother inherited this watch, and then it was passed down to my wife. Very unusual with the multi-colored gold trim. My wife's mother had the works removed to wear it on a chain.
https://i.postimg.cc/cHNvdHSy/AldW.jpg
My wife's mother inherited this watch, and then it was passed down to my wife. Very unusual with the multi-colored gold trim. My wife's mother had the works removed to wear it on a chain.
Very nice, and if gold, valuable. Ladies watches and cases are usually in nice mechanical and cosmetic condition since they were never used daily. My wife’s grandmother’s 1907 6s 7j Elgin is a pendant watch and looks like it was made last week. It spent all its life in the dresser drawer. You see very few of them for sale, however. Do you still have the movement?
Johnny P
01-10-2019, 11:52
Yes. We found one of those cases made to keep watch movements in.
Don't know anything about this one's history, but an American Waltham Watch Co. in a 14K rose gold case. Love the beautiful work on the inscription.
https://i.postimg.cc/mDK379Kc/JLA.jpg
Yes. We found one of those cases made to keep watch movements in.
Don't know anything about this one's history, but an American Waltham Watch Co. in a 14K rose gold case. Love the beautiful work on the inscription.
The inscribed date might add a little to the value of the case, but the detailed front cover is really something to see even with some gold loss around the edge. You would maximize the overall value by reinstalling the movement. (JMHO)
The inscribed date might add a little to the value of the case, but the detailed front cover is really something to see even with some gold loss around the edge. You would maximize the overall value by reinstalling the movement. (JMHO)
Absolutely true. If the movement isn't available or is unrepairable you might find one on line. There are a lot of movements available because so many cases were destroyed to harvest their gold during the precious metals bubbles leaving their movements to be had sometimes at very popular prices. I checked E-Bay and there were literally hundreds of movements for Elgins from scrap movements for parts to running movements. You'll find the same for all the other major manufacturers. Find the right size, stem or lever set and any watchmaker can clean it up and install it for you.
Also I would be interested to know who made the case and the guarantee length. The warranty on the case is for the case only and is the number of years the watch can be carried before the gold clad (gold filled) finish wears through to the brass underneath. If a case is solid gold it will probably say "assay" and the karat gold content, usually 14k.
This is probably not a watch of any interest to you guys, but it's my dads old watch. I always thought it was "railroad approved" for some reason. A jeweler told me it wasn't very valuable. The watch next to it was my moms. Of course they mean a lot to me.
44910
One of the interesting, although sad aspects of the history of early watches equipped with radium dials was the short life span of the watch factory workers who hand-painted the hour numbers on the dials and watch hands with the radium paint. The process was changed once the manufacturers realized that their workers were dying of radio active poisoning from being exposed to the radium in the paint. The women dial painters found it was easier to paint the numbers if the brush bristles were formed into a tiny point and they did this by twirling the brush in their mouths.
One of the interesting, although sad aspects of the history of early watches equipped with radium dials was the short life span of the watch factory workers who hand-painted the hour numbers on the dials and watch hands with the radium paint. The process was changed once the manufacturers realized that their workers were dying of radio active poisoning from being exposed to the radium in the paint. The women dial painters found it was easier to paint the numbers if the brush bristles were formed into a tiny point and they did this by twirling the brush in their mouths.
The same was true of early X-ray machines. A lot of doctors, nurses, and some patients had their lives significantly shortened by exposure to X-rays. An old radiologist told me of a doctor who had awful consequences in the early 20th century because he would hold the spots being X-rayed on people in place with his hand. It can take a while to realize how dangerous a new technology or product can be.
I also remember buying shoes as a kid and being Xrayed to determine fit of the shoe.
The Elgin RR watch continues to impress me. I adjusted the regulator over a period of several days and finally achieved sync with a quartz Wittenaur wristwatch. Both have been running in sync for 2 days. As good as this mechanical movement is, I doubted it’s ability to match a quartz. Not bad for an 80 year old watch. The RRs required plus or minus 30 seconds per week.
I am not a Horologist, but I love old watches. It depresses me to see, on the Antique Roadshow, a 1700's watch wound with a separate key that is worth $700 and a confiderate sword that is worth $5000.
As far as accuracy, a $15 electronic wristwatch is more accurate than the most accurate (old) wind up pocket watch.
I finally narrowed it down a little about my dads watch. Lot's of sites and about 300 pictures. I saw a bunch of watches that were close, but the unique thing about my watch is the military time band is on the inside of the numerals, not out near the edge. No little segments of seconds. It's a "time only" as opposed to a chronograph equipt'd. Probably the most basic 1930's-40's watch you can find. Military style.
I found out most of this on a hip website that covers all COOl stuff. Booze, food, whatever cool dudes should know. Gear Patrol.
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This isn't my exact watch but it's what they used in the article(I did find one closer but didn't think to dnload it).
-While Longines’s chronograph production in the 1940s was robust, the production of simpler three-hand watches was prolific. Using the technology it had honed in the development of its chronographs, Longines was able to produce reliable time-only watches that were shock-, dust- and water-resistant. These watches were characterized by small steel cases (30-32mm) with tapered lugs and simple stepped bezels. While some of these time-only watches were produced under contract for various militaries, many more were produced for the consumer market. Most utilized the venerable Longines calibre 12.68z, a robust, manual-wind movement with anti-shock protection, though some also utilized the 27M with its sub-seconds layout.-
These watches were so common they didn't get fancy names. I did see a Calatrava that looked a little similar but it was a sei(6) tacche(notch).
This has been fun. Oh, and thanks to Art and Merc for the links and information. Stuff like this might get me enticed to look into watches. I sure have seen some beauties in the last couple of days. My better sense knows I know .01% about watches. But a real RR280 would be cool, or one of those nice Elgins...
By the way, why can't Timex make one of those press button-glow in the dark indiglo watches that lasts more than a year? It's the perfect dark middle of the night camping watch.
Another question: If my watch was made in the 30's-40's then it must not have radium painted hands. By 1925 the effects were well known(from what I read). So it's some other kind of phosphorous?
I am not a Horologist, but I love old watches. It depresses me to see, on the Antique Roadshow, a 1700's watch wound with a separate key that is worth $700 and a confiderate sword that is worth $5000.
As far as accuracy, a $15 electronic wristwatch is more accurate than the most accurate (old) wind up pocket watch.
PWC, I hear you and agree. The price of any antique is usually driven by three things. Rarity, rarity and rarity. Confederate swords are so rare that they are almost impossible to find on the open market. Collectors are everywhere, hence the demand is incredible. If you do find one, the seller usually knows what he has and wants a fortune for it. I’m in Gettysburg several times each year scouting the antique shops and it’s rare that ANY confederate artifacts are offered for sale.
While the really old English key wound watches from the 1700s might also be rare, fewer people collect them and that might be the reason the demand isn’t as strong. I admire the really old watches for the engineering that went into building them, and the fact that they paved the way for the mass-produced US watches of the mid 1800s. I’d definitely be a buyer if one presented itself however, the only 1700s watches I’ve ever seen are in museums.
You’re correct. The modern quartz watches are the pinnacle of accuracy. Even the really cheap ones will usually outperform the most expensive mechanical watches. The Bulova Accutron revolutionized the watch building business. Will the $15 watches still be working 50 or 100 years from now? No, like the Dollar Watches, they were designed to be thrown away when they stop working. I own quite a few of both varieties and like to wear my 1966 Seiko 26j automatic even though it’s not as accurate as the other watch that I like to wear which is a 1980s big quartz chronograph also made by Seiko.
The latest watches are medical monitors and mini computers. Remember Dick Tracy and his two way wrist radio?
I finally narrowed it down a little about my dads watch. Lot's of sites and about 300 pictures. I saw a bunch of watches that were close, but the unique thing about my watch is the military time band is on the inside of the numerals, not out near the edge. No little segments of seconds. It's a "time only" as opposed to a chronograph equipt'd. Probably the most basic 1930's-40's watch you can find. Military style.
I found out most of this on a hip website that covers all COOl stuff. Booze, food, whatever cool dudes should know. Gear Patrol.
44927
This isn't my exact watch but it's what they used in the article(I did find one closer but didn't think to dnload it).
-While Longines’s chronograph production in the 1940s was robust, the production of simpler three-hand watches was prolific. Using the technology it had honed in the development of its chronographs, Longines was able to produce reliable time-only watches that were shock-, dust- and water-resistant. These watches were characterized by small steel cases (30-32mm) with tapered lugs and simple stepped bezels. While some of these time-only watches were produced under contract for various militaries, many more were produced for the consumer market. Most utilized the venerable Longines calibre 12.68z, a robust, manual-wind movement with anti-shock protection, though some also utilized the 27M with its sub-seconds layout.-
These watches were so common they didn't get fancy names. I did see a Calatrava that looked a little similar but it was a sei(6) tacche(notch).
This has been fun. Oh, and thanks to Art and Merc for the links and information. Stuff like this might get me enticed to look into watches. I sure have seen some beauties in the last couple of days. My better sense knows I know .01% about watches. But a real RR280 would be cool, or one of those nice Elgins...
By the way, why can't Timex make one of those press button-glow in the dark indiglo watches that lasts more than a year? It's the perfect dark middle of the night camping watch.
Another question: If my watch was made in the 30's-40's then it must not have radium painted dials. By 1925 the effects were well known(from what I read). So it's some other kind of phosphorous?
Let me be the first to welcome you to watch collecting (if you decide to jump in and join us), just as you and many others welcomed me to the gun collecting world a few years ago when I knew almost zero about guns. Like Art said, most gun collectors also have an interest in watches or vice versa. We just like mechanical things that took lots of engineering and thought to build. Stick with the watches that were made in the US by the major manufacturers. It’s nice to be able to hold the first mass produced US product in your hand that still works. You have a choice of acquiring the modestly priced common watches of which there are plenty out there to choose from, or opt for the better, more expensive RR grade 21j and 23j beauties that cost a little more. Either way, it’s lots of fun.
I’ll do some research on the radium dial and let you know if I find anything. The question would be, did they continue using radium and just stop hand painting the dials or did they switch to a different luminous coating and what would that be?
Forget the Timex and use the digital clock on your cell phone at night.
Good point; maybe they still used it, they just stopped putting it in their mouths. That was a hundred yrs ago. I'm thinking in the present. The EPA was still a long way away.
I read several articles on the subject. It appears that the use of radium paint on watch dials and aircraft instruments continued through WW2. Radium levels the women dial painters were exposed to still persisted but at much lower levels than before. They knew by then what activity to avoid in order to minimize exposure. At least they weren’t swallowing a dose of radiation hundreds of times daily.
JOHN COOK
01-12-2019, 12:10
Fellows, great post... My dad had a pocket watch that was traded to him for a shotgun by a Southern Railroad conductor (SC) in the early 40"s. It was a Elgin and I know nothing else about it. When he passed my sister got her hands on it and I have never seen it again. He told me about the trade when I was about 10-12 years old. He was extremely pound of that watch. He wore a vest with his suits and had a chain attached where by you could see the chain and he loved to take it out and check the time. I think he was kinda showing off.:hello:
john in SC
Jiminvirginia
01-12-2019, 01:33
I read several articles on the subject. It appears that the use of radium paint on watch dials and aircraft instruments continued through WW2. Radium levels the women dial painters were exposed to still persisted but at much lower levels than before. They knew by then what activity to avoid in order to minimize exposure. At least they weren’t swallowing a dose of radiation hundreds of times daily.
When I worked at Waltham Precision Inst some of the old Waltham Watch folks talked about "the girls" downstairs that painted the watch faces back in the day. People they personally knew.
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So Waltham Watch became Waltham Precision Instruments, who then became the Waltham Aircraft Clock Company. Still in business down in Alabama I believe making and repairing aircraft clocks, the legacy of which can be traced back to the original Waltham Watch Company.
When I worked at Waltham Precision Inst some of the old Waltham Watch folks talked about "the girls" downstairs that painted the watch faces back in the day. People they personally knew.
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So Waltham Watch became Waltham Precision Instruments, who then became the Waltham Aircraft Clock Company. Still in business down in Alabama I believe making and repairing aircraft clocks, the legacy of which can be traced back to the original Waltham Watch Company.
We’re fortunate to have you share some Waltham history with us. Anything else you can think of would be greatly appreciated. Can you share photos of company related items?
This thread will soon blow past 1000 hits so a lot of guys are interested and watching.
Jiminvirginia
01-12-2019, 02:35
Sorry no photos. There is a small museum in Waltham, Ma. I think if you Google Waltham Watch Museum it brings it up. They have some of the watchmaker lathes and a couple of other machines that I recognize but can't precisely remember what they did. I worked in the burnishing department, where a hard carbide wheel put a smooth finish on a bearing surface. Worked on a lot of A 13 Barrel Arbors. Interesting note on jewels. The old watchmakers told me anything over 9 jewels is just for show.
Fellows, great post... My dad had a pocket watch that was traded to him for a shotgun by a Southern Railroad conductor (SC) in the early 40"s. It was a Elgin and I know nothing else about it. When he passed my sister got her hands on it and I have never seen it again. He told me about the trade when I was about 10-12 years old. He was extremely pound of that watch. He wore a vest with his suits and had a chain attached where by you could see the chain and he loved to take it out and check the time. I think he was kinda showing off.:hello:
john in SC
John,
The conductor probably paid $2100 in today’s dollars for the watch if he bought it new. It sounds like your dad enjoyed wearing the watch so I’d say he did OK on the trade.
Sorry no photos. There is a small museum in Waltham, Ma. I think if you Google Waltham Watch Museum it brings it up. They have some of the watchmaker lathes and a couple of other machines that I recognize but can't precisely remember what they did. I worked in the burnishing department, where a hard carbide wheel put a smooth finish on a bearing surface. Worked on a lot of A 13 Barrel Arbors. Interesting note on jewels. The old watchmakers told me anything over 9 jewels is just for show.
I’ve always wondered about the jewel count. I wound up with four 7 jewel watches, three of them are from the 1880s and 1890s and one from 1907 and they run just fine. Those 7 jewels must be located in the absolute most critical areas of the movement that require minimal friction.
Jiminvirginia
01-12-2019, 03:46
I’ve always wondered about the jewel count. I wound up with four 7 jewel watches, three of them are from the 1880s and 1890s and one from 1907 and they run just fine. Those 7 jewels must be located in the absolute most critical areas of the movement that require minimal friction.
Some parts of a watch movement move extremely slowly and as I understood did not require the jewelled bearing surface. I am no expert in this though. Another note, I was told that because the aircraft clocks were a government contract the jewells were required by law to come from any Indian reservation.
I’ve always wondered about the jewel count. I wound up with four 7 jewel watches, three of them are from the 1880s and 1890s and one from 1907 and they run just fine. Those 7 jewels must be located in the absolute most critical areas of the movement that require minimal friction.
Disclaimer: I'm not close to being a real horologist but I know some and I am a curious sort.
I once read an article on this. They said that jewels went on the hardest working surfaces first, that considered a 7 jewel watch should work just fine, though maybe for not as long as one with more of the little rock bearings. A 17j watch was considered "fully jeweled," and 21 jewel watch covered every vaguely important moving surface. Above that is truly just for show. Jewel count became such a status symbol that I understand that there are 100 jewel watches with the little rocks scattered all over their insides most bearing on nothing.
I read that Waltham would take out of spec staffs and jewels and other parts and put the compatible out of spec parts in their 7j watches, for instance staffs that were out of spec on the large side would be matched up with compatible jewels, thus avoiding waste.
Something that really cut cost was the development of synthetic rubies in the last quarter of the 19th century which almost eliminated the need for the more expensive mined gem stones for technical and industrial use by 1900.
The 22nd and 23rd jewels are on the mainspring barrel.
www.pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/jewels
My 1966 Seiko automatic winder wristwatch has 26 jewels. Two of those jewels are probably for the weight that spins the mainspring barrel and keeps the watch wound. The highest jewel count watch that Seiko made in the mid 1960s had an amazing 31 jewels.
Jiminvirginia
01-12-2019, 06:22
For some old photos of Waltham Watch pull up www.pocketwatchrepair.com.
Or just look up Waltham Watch. Brings back memories. The photos were taken in the late 1800s but it still looked similar in the late 1970s.
Another tidbit I remember. We worked in both the metric and English measuring systems. I think I had a broken machine one day and had to clean up some threads. Could not find a tap that fit. Asked for help from one of the machinists and he remarked that it must be a "Waltham size". Turns out they used custom sizes to prevent copying.
Seems I remember a lot about that place. Only worked there for a year or so.
This is fun....The most I've posted here in quite a spell
This is fun....The most I've posted here in quite a spell
How about posting a few pics of your old watches. (Open invitation to all.)
This is a mint condition key wound 1886 Elgin 18s 11j in a big coin silver “Hunter” case. The key was inserted through the hole in the rear cover to wind the watch. The key was also required to set the hands to indicate the proper time. This was a delicate part of the operation. The term “Hunter” referred to the case type that had a hinged lid that covered the watch face. The terms 18s and 11j refers to the watch size and jewel count. Size 18 was the largest watch made and a watch with 11 jewels was considered to be a high quality watch in 1886.
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Ok, this is a gun site so I'm putting in some "gun porn" with the "watch porn." I apologize in advance for the quality. I usually do better than this but I don't have my photographic mojo today so it is what it is.
Left to right: 1911 21 j Waltham Crescent St with 1926 L.C. Smith Field Grade 12 gauge shotgun (the watch and the shotgun cost about the same.) - 1961 Hamilton 17j Thin-o-matic with 1978 Texas State Police Smith & Wesson Model 28 .357 Magnum Highway Patrolman - 1911 Waltham Crescent Street - 17j Walter Starcke "mystery watch," I know who the vendor was but have no idea who made it despite searching lots of sites. The case is an Illinois Watch Case Company which tells zero about who the actual maker of the movement was -1982 Omega 17j (ETA movement.) I put a "sport chain" on it and, as I previously said, wear this one a lot with jeans, it's very thin.
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All except the Omega are heirloom watches. I would like to think the Waltham belonged to my grandfather (I'm named after him,) it is the sort of thing he would have bought but there is no way to be sure.....
A picture of the Walter Starcke movement when I was having a better camera day. As you can see the watch has been used so much that most of the finish is worn off the stem, but it still keeps very good time.
44959
Art,
I can read Walter Starcke on the movement. What does the rest say?
Art,
I can read Walter Starcke on the movement. What does the rest say?
It says
Walter Starcke
Junction City Kans
17 Jewels
That is the only lettering on the movement.
The research I did shows that the Starcke family operated a high end jewelry and sundries store in Junction City from the mid 1880s to the late 1950s. It also had an optometrist shop. The founder, Walter Starcke was a jeweler and watchmaker. Judging from the Illinois Watch Case Company Spartan case and the art deco looking damascening I suppose it was made between 1920 and the start of WWII. The movement is in the 5,700,000 range which seems to be proof positive that the movement was not made by Starcke.
I have only seen one other reference to one of these watches. An auction in the U.K. had a "very rare Walter Starcke" watch for sale, same face but a different case. No on line sites I have found have any reference to these watches. My horologist friend suggested that I post pictures and a description on watchuseek and that was a complete bust as well.
Oh, it is a lever set.
44965
The Starcke store in its heyday.
It’s unusual that a manufacturer would exclude their name or model number from the watch. I checked the serial number of the watch against the serial numbers used by the two largest US companies (Elgin and Waltham) and they both blew past the 5 million mark in the 1890s. Yours appears to be an early 1900s to 1920s high quality watch. The 17j, 16s, lever set, spade and whip hands, a white dial with large black numbers and a red seconds chapter, would suggest a specialty purpose (i.e. some possible limited approved RR use). Will keep looking.
One of the watches in my cousin's house was a "Plymouth." It is a very small ladies watch in a 14k solid gold case. Unfortunately it was not repairable. It was, as I recall, marked "Plymouth Watch Company" on the movement.
I found that these watches were made by Rockford and Illinois for Sears Roebuck in the first decade of the 20th century but are not marked as such. Sears was such a big operation then that the knowledge of the makers of the Sears Roebuck watches is common knowledge while the watches made for a single store in Kansas would not be. Sears Roebuck in their ads claims that their 17 j watches are superior to 21j watches produced by the "maker." Obviously the manufacturer(s) of the Plymouth watches wouldn't want their name on a Sears watch with a claim like that!!!
Art,
I enlarged the movement photo and I can only see six numbers in the serial number.
Art,
I enlarged the movement photo and I can only see six numbers in the serial number.
You are correct. I looked at the serial number under a magnifier and it is indeed 570493. I mistakenly thought there was a 1 after the 3.
Rockford hit 570,000 in 1900-1901 but it's hard to believe this watch is that old.
Art,
You may never be able to identify the manufacturer. I looked through my watch books and Rockford is a possibility although I didn’t see the exact same watch. The English and Swiss were exporting movements so it could be one of theirs. Old Walt must have sold quite a few movements in order to get a manufacturer to put his name on the movement instead of their name.
Art,
You may never be able to identify the manufacturer. I looked through my watch books and Rockford is a possibility although I didn’t see the exact same watch. The English and Swiss were exporting movements so it could be one of theirs. Old Walt must have sold quite a few movements in order to get a manufacturer to put his name on the movement instead of their name.
I'm afraid you're right. The chance of finding anything like this on a small business operating 100 years ago, no matter how prosperous is slim and none and I'm afraid slim has left town.
Thank you for your help and insight. I appreciate it.
Here’s one you don’t see often. It’s a big 1912 Waltham 18s 15j in an unusual case. The movement and case are attached with a hinge that allows it to swing out from the case. 15 jewels was considered high quality in 1912. Still runs and keeps great time. This was someone’s daily watch for many years (notice the crown is worn smooth and the brassing on the back of the case from pocket wear).
4497344974449754497644977
45020
Four watches; three Elgin’s and one Waltham; all size 12 from the 1920s. The three Elgins are 17j movements, the Waltham is 15j (far left). No more white porcelain dials on watches from this era. They all have painted metal dials. None are particularly rare, so the book value is pretty cheap even though they are considered high quality watches. Second from the left is my dad’s Elgin with a refinished dial.
Interesting story about the Waltham. I picked it at an estate sale a few years ago and it ran but was really slow. I took the back cover off and the movement looked clean and normal. I took the front bezel off and saw something sticking up out of the sub seconds hand hole. I got a pair of tweezers and pulled at it and to my surprise, out came a human hair that had to be 8 inches long that was wound completely around the seconds post. How it got there is anyone’s guess. The watch runs fine now.
I walked into a huge antique mall in Fort Myers, FL the other day and there was another railroad watch calling my name. The asking price was less than one half of the usual market price for this watch and the seller accepted my offer that trimmed another 30%, so it followed me home. This one is a nice running 1950 Elgin 571 grade 21j 16s with a minty movement and perfect dial. It was the final railroad grade pocket watch that Elgin would produce. The photos show the grade 571 and the previously purchased and nearly perfect 1939 Elgin grade 540 23j 16s. Of course, I suspect there was a reason that the price for the 571 was so cheap. The case is without brassing and adequately contains the movement but the bow shows considerable wear (very loose) and the rim has a few dings that are all probably consistent with 20-30 or more years of daily service. A minty case occasionally surfaces on eBay that might push the cost up closer to maybe 60% to 70% of its true value, but I wont bother looking for one. I’d rather keep the original. Maybe i’ll wear it.
4522245223
The 571 is on the right.
Secret message in Lincoln’s pocket watch.
http://www.pocketwatchrepair.com/histories/lincoln.html
Some interesting watches.
Edit:
IMHO, these watches may be worth every penny just because of the rarity, materials, complications plus they are beautiful engineering marvels, but the American railroad watch went to work and kept excellent time every day for 40 or more years.
https://moneyinc.com/most-expensive-pocket-watches-ever-made/
Finally, watches that get their just recognition.
I hate it when on the Antiques Roadshow, a watch or clock thats 100, 150+ years old gets $1500, and a Civil War bayonet gets $6-8000.
My old (1914) Waltham Crescent Street has several sets of very faint numbers with letters on the inside of the back of the case. Some are completely or partially illegible, even under magnification. A few of the legible ones are 140A (or H,) P179 and L7 (or 9.) These appear to have been done by hand with a fine tool by different individuals. The letters are mostly block but the "L" on the L7 is beautifully drawn, almost like calligraphy. The case is a 20 year Wadsworth Referee s/n. 3247094. These faint numbers, about seven in all are stacked to the right side of and under the Wadsworth logo and s/n.
Any thoughts???
Watchmakers would engrave the inside of the rear cover with job numbers and often included dates related to the cleaning and repairs that were performed. These entries could be an indication of the number of times a watch was serviced. You get an idea of what it was like to own a mechanical watch 100 years ago. They required lubrication and the lubricants used were not what they are today and would break down and gum up the movement every 10 years or so. Some of the more expensive synthetic watch oils used today have microscopic diamond bearings and cost around $700/oz.
Finally, watches that get their just recognition.
I hate it when on the Antiques Roadshow, a watch or clock thats 100, 150+ years old gets $1500, and a Civil War bayonet gets $6-8000.
The demand for anything from the Confederacy is strong. Union artifacts are fairly common and much less expensive but most Confederate items are rare and priced accordingly.
On the other hand, American watches made in the 19th and 20th century were made by the millions and are common. They were simple but well-made for a mass produced product and dependable. Some RR watches were equipped with one complication that boosted the value - the mainspring wind-up status indicator which alerted the owner when the mainspring needed winding. Even the cheaper 7 jewel watches worked well and were durable.
You missed 1-150+......not long ago there was a 1740, 2 key clock........not mass produced, in that time all was hand fitted. Not worth as much now as when new, when adjusted for inflation.
Watchmakers would engrave the inside of the rear cover with job numbers and often included dates related to the cleaning and repairs that were performed. These entries could be an indication of the number of times a watch was serviced. You get an idea of what it was like to own a mechanical watch 100 years ago. They required lubrication and the lubricants used were not what they are today and would break down and gum up the movement every 10 years or so. Some of the more expensive synthetic watch oils used today have microscopic diamond bearings and cost around $700/oz.
Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. If each of those marks indicates one trip to a watchmaker or jeweler it had a very long service life before being retired, or as it is now, semi retired.
On value....laying aside the special place weapons have historically and culturally and considering the cost of good late 19th - mid 20th century watches and firearms were comparable when new: I suspect that one of the reasons antique and vintage firearms are so much more valuable now is due to attrition from hard use, including exposure to the elements and harsh chemicals (black powder and corrosive primers.) This reduced their numbers to the point that their values was greatly increased compared to watches of comparable vintage which usually had a much more sheltered work existences due to being more gently used and often being in some sock drawer or shadow box or display case after they were viewed as being obsolete. The good news is if you want a fine old watch, especially a pocket watch, even very high quality working examples can be had for several hundred dollars, unless, of course, the case isn't solid gold.
Hmmmm..... must be a lot of horologists that are also shooters.
Hmmmm..... must be a lot of horologists that are also shooters.
I agree. Must be our interest in old things that still work.
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A record $31 million was recently paid for a Patek Philippe wrist watch.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/patek-philippe-watch-sells-for-record-dollar31-million-at-auction/ar-BBWDru3
Here’s an unusual US military aircraft dashboard clock that’s actually an Elgin 8 day running pocket watch that I picked at an antique shop yesterday.
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Conductor
02-11-2020, 11:15
Here are some photos of a nice 14K pocket watch that I bought back in 1970. It was presented to a guy who worked for the B&O Railroad (retirement gift?). It is interesting to note that it is a hunting-case watch, which was not approved for carry after the 1893 ruling on railroad approved watches.
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The inscription reads: PRESENTED TO THOMAS TAYLOR BY THE ENGINEERS FIREMEN AND SHOPMEN OF THE B&O RR NEWARK, OHIO JAN 19TH 1885
^
guess if a retirement present, it did not have to be an approved watch and or case??
beautiful watch!!
Beautiful watch, I assume it runs. The days of the gold "thank you for your service watch" are pretty much over. I have my father in laws Hamilton Thin o Matic he got for 30 years with Exxon in 1961. Nice watch with a solid 14 k gold case. It still keeps good time. I joke that I feel like Dan Draper every time I wear it.
Conductor
02-12-2020, 07:42
^
guess if a retirement present, it did not have to be an approved watch and or case??
beautiful watch!!
There were no "approved watches" prior to the 1893 adoption of the General Railroad Timepiece Standards.
And yes. It still runs. I have it cleaned and lubed about every three years. I only wind it about every six months or so. It keeps excellent time. It's not quite up to railroad standard (loss or gain of no more than 30 seconds per week). But it's close. Generally not more than 1 minute per week.
Cosine26
02-12-2020, 10:11
My Ball Watch
As indicated it is an 18 size watch, almost as large as a Baby Ben alarm clock. It belonged to my uncle who railroaded in the SW prior to WWI. When he joined the navy in WWI, he sold or hocked it to my other uncle who kept it until the 1980’s, when he passed on and I inherited it.
I have my fathers 23 Jewel Waltham Vanguard and my 23 jewel; Waltham Vanguard (which I bought when I worked for the Illinois Central before entering WWII). My Vanguard is adjusted for 6 positions and has the wind indicator. I paid $40 for it in 1943.
It is becoming very difficult and expensive to have these watches repaired or maintained.
Ball (Hamilton) 18s 17j 992B LS OF S/N 28400 double roller escapement Adj 6ps temp RR Grade circa 1900 Sapphire pallets safety pinion
Dial excellent condition marked “Official RR Standard “
Runs and keeps time.
Case some wear on gold colored case.
Used by my uncle while railroading in SW US prior to WWI
https://imgur.com/GXbxDIF
https://imgur.com/7Ye4Sw7
https://imgur.com/UuqwWOD
https://imgur.com/AOvjMxn
https://imgur.com/0NAjd2p
My Ball Watch
As indicated it is an 18 size watch, almost as large as a Baby Ben alarm clock. It belonged to my uncle who railroaded in the SW prior to WWI. When he joined the navy in WWI, he sold or hocked it to my other uncle who kept it until the 1980’s, when he passed on and I inherited it.
I have my fathers 23 Jewel Waltham Vanguard and my 23 jewel; Waltham Vanguard (which I bought when I worked for the Illinois Central before entering WWII). My Vanguard is adjusted for 6 positions and has the wind indicator. I paid $40 for it in 1943.
It is becoming very difficult and expensive to have these watches repaired or maintained.
Ball (Hamilton) 18s 17j 992B LS OF S/N 28400 double roller escapement Adj 6ps temp RR Grade circa 1900 Sapphire pallets safety pinion
Dial excellent condition marked “Official RR Standard “
Runs and keeps time.
Case some wear on gold colored case.
Used by my uncle while railroading in SW US prior to WWI
https://imgur.com/GXbxDIF
https://imgur.com/7Ye4Sw7
https://imgur.com/UuqwWOD
[url]https://imgur.com/0NAjd2p
seeing if I can make the pics show
nope
Cosine26
02-12-2020, 02:24
I just click on them with my mouse and they open. On my I pad I jut touch the address and they open. These should be url addresses using imgur. I can open on my Dell, my HP, or my IPAD, using Windows XP, Seven or Ten or the APPLE OS, whatever came with THE IPAD. I do not know how to embed pictures on the web site.
I just click on them with my mouse and they open. On my I pad I jut touch the address and they open. These should be url addresses using imgur. I can open on my Dell, my HP, or my IPAD, using Windows XP, Seven or Ten or the APPLE OS, whatever came with THE IPAD. I do not know how to embed pictures on the web site.
I've imbeded pics her before but not from imgur,
thought a simple img/img might work for those who did not want to click,
and a very nice watch
My Ball Watch
As indicated it is an 18 size watch, almost as large as a Baby Ben alarm clock. It belonged to my uncle who railroaded in the SW prior to WWI. When he joined the navy in WWI, he sold or hocked it to my other uncle who kept it until the 1980’s, when he passed on and I inherited it.
I have my fathers 23 Jewel Waltham Vanguard and my 23 jewel; Waltham Vanguard (which I bought when I worked for the Illinois Central before entering WWII). My Vanguard is adjusted for 6 positions and has the wind indicator. I paid $40 for it in 1943.
It is becoming very difficult and expensive to have these watches repaired or maintained.
Ball (Hamilton) 18s 17j 992B LS OF S/N 28400 double roller escapement Adj 6ps temp RR Grade circa 1900 Sapphire pallets safety pinion
Dial excellent condition marked “Official RR Standard “
Runs and keeps time.
Case some wear on gold colored case.
Used by my uncle while railroading in SW US prior to WWI
https://imgur.com/GXbxDIF
https://imgur.com/7Ye4Sw7
https://imgur.com/UuqwWOD
https://imgur.com/AOvjMxn
https://imgur.com/0NAjd2p
Your 18S Ball-Hamilton was made in 1898 and is very desirable as are the Waltham RR grade watches. Thanks for sharing. Edit: Make sure you record all known information on your watches because it will add to their value.
- - - Updated - - -
Here’s an unusual US military aircraft dashboard clock that’s actually an Elgin 8 day running pocket watch that I picked at an antique shop yesterday.
471234712447125
I did some research on the model number and this military aircraft clock/watch was made in 1943 which places it in WW2.
Here are some photos of a nice 14K pocket watch that I bought back in 1970. It was presented to a guy who worked for the B&O Railroad (retirement gift?). It is interesting to note that it is a hunting-case watch, which was not approved for carry after the 1893 ruling on railroad approved watches.
47161471624716347164
The inscription reads: PRESENTED TO THOMAS TAYLOR BY THE ENGINEERS FIREMEN AND SHOPMEN OF THE B&O RR NEWARK, OHIO JAN 19TH 1885
The retirement gift watches cased in gold were often placed in drawers and only worn for special occasions (if at all) and are therefore in mostly “as new” condition. The inscription is interesting and adds to the story of the watch. Thanks for posting. I’m not familiar with the manufacturer. Is it Swiss?
Conductor
02-13-2020, 05:06
The retirement gift watches cased in gold were often placed in drawers and only worn for special occasions (if at all) and are therefore in mostly “as new” condition. The inscription is interesting and adds to the story of the watch. Thanks for posting. I’m not familiar with the manufacturer. Is it Swiss?
The maker of the movement, Agassiz, was a well-known (to the trade) Swiss watch manufacturer who made watch movements for a number of high-end retailers. Tiffany, Patek-Phillipe, and Cartier all sold watches made by Agassiz.
The maker of the movement, Agassiz, was a well-known (to the trade) Swiss watch manufacturer who made watch movements for a number of high-end retailers. Tiffany, Patek-Phillipe, and Cartier all sold watches made by Agassiz.
Learned something new. Thanks.
Cosine26
02-13-2020, 08:11
Hi Lyman
Were you ever able to open the pictures?
Try thus link:
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/ball/28400
Look down in the lower left corner and you will see a description of the Ball Watch. Copy the urls shown and paste them into your address line add try open them . Perhaps our brwser will not let you open them. I use both MS Exporer and Opera
Hi Lyman
Were you ever able to open the pictures?
Try thus link:
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/ball/28400
Look down in the lower left corner and you will see a description of the Ball Watch. Copy the urls shown and paste them into your address line add try open them . Perhaps our brwser will not let you open them. I use both MS Exporer and Opera
absolutely,
was just trying to have them show up for other members here that may not trust or want to click the link,
I run Chrome, so no issues
Cosine26
02-13-2020, 11:12
This was my father’s watch. It is a 23 Jewel, Waltham Vanguard. The 1920’s were not good times for all. My father operated a hardware store and this man came in and needed money. My father lent him either $5 or $10 and held the watch as collateral. The man never returned so my father had a watch. He carried this watch until he passed in 1954 and inherited it from him. This was a working watch so it has some case wear. In the days before WWI, wrist watches were considered “sissy”. I do not believe that my father ever wore a wrist watch until he served with AEF in WWI.
I have just had the watch cleaned and a new main spring stalled. If you click on the picture it will grow larger-at least it does for me.
16 size
S/N 220530076
Open Face
Lever set
Adj for temp
Adj 5 pos
RR Grade
Montgomery Dial
https://imgur.com/thitx6B
Cosine26
02-13-2020, 02:22
Nav Watch
When I was a navigator/bombardier in the USAF , I was issued two watches. One was a wrist watch called a “hack” watch for non precise navigation = ded reckoning. This could be reset in flight from the “master” watch
The other was a “master” watch”. It was encased in a MU metal container with a covered viewing window and used for celestial navigation. In determining longitude it was necessary to know the exact GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). A rule of thumb said that a 4 second error inn time equaled a mile in error.
Here is the data stamped on the rear of the case:
AN 5740
Hamilton 4992B
22 jewel
Stem set (and could be hacked form the chronometer in Base Ops)(Obviously not RR Grade)
ADJ Temp 6 ps
S/N AF42-30852 on case- movement was not serialized
Contract No W535 ac 28072
s/N 42-30852 ( No serial number on movement)
It has a 24 hour dial
https://imgur.com/TDbxCH1
The maker of the movement, Agassiz, was a well-known (to the trade) Swiss watch manufacturer who made watch movements for a number of high-end retailers. Tiffany, Patek-Phillipe, and Cartier all sold watches made by Agassiz.
Auguste Agassiz was the founder of the Longines Watch Co. That bit of information ties it all together. It’s probably not rare to see Agassiz’s name on a watch dial, but not common either.
My 1943 Elgin 8 Day Military Aircraft Dashboard Clock has been running continuously for the past week if I wind it every day.
47184
I’ve been searching the internet trying to see if I could determine what type of aircraft would have had this clock installed in its dashboard but
I haven’t had any luck.
Cosine26
02-21-2020, 10:57
Hi Merc
That is quite a common USAF and USAAF item and was found in many different types of aircraft. I was a comm officer in a F84 squadron and flew B26's in Korea and B29's and B47's in SAC during the 1950's. I have flown other USAF aircraft and most all were equipped with this type of clock. It was very susceptible to theft and most crew chiefs had to keep an eye on them.
FWIW
Cosine26
02-21-2020, 11:26
https://kenrockwell.com/watches/waltham/a-13a.htm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-USAAF-Air-Force-Elgin-Airplane-Cockpit-Clock-1943-from-P-38-Lightning-/174171327090
here is a site showing a variants
Hi Merc
That is quite a common USAF and USAAF item and was found in many different types of aircraft. I was a comm officer in a F84 squadron and flew B26's in Korea and B29's and B47's in SAC during the 1950's. I have flown other USAF aircraft and most all were equipped with this type of clock. It was very susceptible to theft and most crew chiefs had to keep an eye on them.
FWIW
Thanks for the information. The same antique dealer had a variety of aircraft dash gauges but the clock was the only one that functioned. Being a watch collector, I had to have it. The movement runs continuously now and will keep accurate time in horizontal and vertical positions without coaxing. I’m going to have it serviced because the movement is probably in original condition which means the lubricant has broken down and the setting knob functions intermittently.
My brother in law was a Squadron Maintenance Officer and flew F86 and F101 fighters in the early 1960s. The F86 was his favorite and he called the F101 a “flying piece of junk.”
Cosine26
02-21-2020, 05:54
Hi Merc
Finding someone to work on these mechanical time pieces is difficult. I finally found one who cleaned my Waltham Vanguard and installed a new mainspring. He was good but not inexpensive. He told me that if they had not been cleaned and lubed every five years.
FWIW
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