1865-66 50/70 trapdoor

[Belling10]

Can anyone tell me exactly what I have. I bought this at a estate auction several weeks ago. The barrel is 22 in long

[Dick Hosmer]

It's hard to tell, without more pictures, just what was put together when, why and how, but the odds of it being real/right are 99.99% against.

At first glance it APPEARS to be a "Model 1866 Carbine" but the problem is - NONE were ever made, at least for issue.

I'm assuming that the "1865" component of your question comes from the date on the lockplate?

The action is from a Model 1866, as is the rear sight, but the thumb latch (from this angle) appears to possibly be from an 1868. I reserve judgement to correct that statement. The stock looks good - again from what I can see - but that would date from 1870, though a handful of 1868 carbines were made for test. The top curvature at the tip appears a bit off, too abrupt, from this angle.

Is there a filled (or open) groove in the stock for a cleaning rod? The trigger guard bow looks to be original carbine, but that could be post-1873, or even - it looks narrow - from an 1869 cadet rifle!

The front sight looks professional and of the period - Bubba's work is usually cruder. Wear and patina look decent and uniform.

Is there a sling ring and bar on the far side?

This is a piece that begs to be handled - at least we need to see a lot more pictures. As I said the odds are VERY long that it isn't right, but SA did make some "one-offs" (I have an 1873 Carbine with left-hand rifling) so you really can never say never.

In short, I just cannot say without more info.

[Belling10]

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[Belling10]

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[Belling10]

The auction I acquired it from was a massive civil war collector estate auction from Lexington Va. I loved the gun so I took a chance on it.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks for the new pictures. I still don't know - but the flat-based swivel bar (and would be a very scarce part on the loose) is the same as that found on an M1870 carbine. I still don't like the foretip, and you did not answer about the cleaning rod groove, or lack thereof? Chance of it being real went up maybe 5%. Interesting piece - someone (perhaps even SA) went to a lot of trouble to make it (almost) right and they didn't bugger anything in the process. If you do not mind my asking - how much was it? You may have backed into a bargain - but it will still be very tough to prove. If not Bubba, perhaps a lunchbox job from the Armory? And, who is to say they did not mock-up a carbine, very early on? Wish someone really knowledgeable could actually hold it in their hands.

[Belling10]

I ended up getting it for 1500 and as far the cleaning rod I see no grooves for a clean rod. Would you happen to know anywhere I could ship it to for a better inspection? I would really like to find out the history and value on this one. I appreciate the info you supplied me with so far. Thanks

[Dick Hosmer]

I've posted a note on www.trapdoorcollector.com - hopefully that will start something. I'm in CA, but there are many knowledgeable people on the east coast, and, I believe the Baltimore show should be coming up soon - you should be able to show it to Al Frasca, or several other people (John Spangler, Dr. John Flynn, etc.) there. Al is THE reigning dean of trapdoor authorities.

[Fred]

Both Dick Hosmer and Al are THE men I’d send it to. They literally wrote the books on the subject of Trapdoor Springfield’s.

[John]

Both Dick Hosmer and Al are THE men I’d send it to. They literally wrote the books on the subject of Trapdoor Springfield’s.

Sounds like you arein the Virginia area. You may want to use this as an excuse to attend the Maryland Arms Collectors "Baltimore Show" in Timonium, MD on March 16-17. Al Frasca is usually there and you can show it to him in person. It is the BEST antique gun show in the country, held once a year. No post 1898 handguns allowed (except for displays). At most gun shows you a lucky to find someone who has read a book, here you can meet the guys who wrote the gun books!

The sling ring bar looks real to me (don't claim to be an expert) and there seems to be no evidence of cleaning rod channel in the forend. If you take the barreled action out, you can verify that the stock has not been pieced under the barrel band which would eliminate the rod channel, and you can also compare the inletting cuts for the M1866 extractor spring, hopefully with a standard M1866 rifle. They are nice clean machine cut, not raggedy hand work.

My gut says someone made a shooter years ago which now has a half century of age to it. But, see what Al Frasca says.

[Dick Hosmer]

Also check the quality of the inletting for the sling ring bar - should be crisp and even.

John's point about a splice under the barrel band is a good one, and could answer my concern about the shaping of the front of the wood. If it's an added piece, the band spring inletting would have been hand done and might show some crudeness.

I like John's last sentence as well. If the work was done a long time ago - even if not right - it would show a uniformity of finish/wear. Fifty years ago, many collectors were a LOT more tolerant of little oddities on their pieces - the good, extensively researched, books did not come out until the early 80's. If the auction was due to the collector having passed, some of his stuff was probably acquired during the 100 year period of (relative) ignorance.

Then, on the other hand, HOW, exactly, did SA determine the form the carbine was going to take? No actual "1866 Carbines" are known, and way less than ten 1868s are recorded. Nothing was produced in "quantity" until the 341 Model 1870s, of which I own a specimen. This gun was not made from "junk" because the (rare) early bar and correct early sling ring appear to be right, albeit for an 1870. The fabricator had access to at least SOME "good stuff". And, did the 1870 Carbine stock simply copy something that had been mocked-up earlier?

Looking at the pics again, that is a strange thumb latch. I do not know if an 1868 (or later) latch could even be fitted into an 1866 block. There are some 'odd' profiles to the wood around the rear of the action (almost wrote "receiver") as well, including the lack of a proper cut for the latch arm. Of course, if it was "the first attempt" they might have gotten it wrong. There is an odd mix of features; that's for sure, since any modern faker would have known things that the maker of this appear not to have. It's a puzzle.

Still, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of a made-up piece, but the TINY possibility that you have found an SA sample needs to be eliminated before a definite statement can be made. If it were me I'd surely take it to the show at Timonium.

[Edatbeach]

I don’t see the hole in the stock for a pin to hold a ramrod spoon, between the breech and barrel band. A hint that could mean it’s not a cut down rifle musket stock.

[Edatbeach]

Provenance, provenance. What was the name of the collector?

[Belling10]

I believe his name was Frank Garrett

[Belling10]

Here’s a few more closer photos4537945380453814538245383

[Belling10]

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[Belling10]

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[Kragrifle]

Ha! I saw that carbine at Baltimore ten years ago. I pretty sure that his name was Garrett. He always set up way back in the far corner and had some neat stuff on his table. If all that is correct I tried to buy that carbine from him (at a lower price), but had a buddy of mine talk me out of going higher!
Please take that thing apart and see how it was built. Rumor was that Garrett built a few things including a great looking Plymouth rifle prototype that I bought, but later sold.

[Belling10]

What would I be looking for?

[Dick Hosmer]

From your latest pics the profile of the wood at the tip is definitely WRONG and NOT SA work. I'm betting there will be some sort of spliced on piece with joint under the band - the barrel walls look a bit thick. That is almost surely a cutdown rifle, in addition to having a blend of parts which SA would not have combined. But, don't worry, the OM will more than cover things. FWIW, I STILL do NOT understand how that deal came about. NO auctioneer in his right mind would do that.

[Kragrifle]

Have you taken the carbine apart yet?

[Belling10]

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[Dick Hosmer]

The plot thickens. Inletting (1866 type) looks good. Forend is apparently homogeneous, but, in side view the profile is *WRONG. Action is an early 1866 with latch screw at left side. Thumb latch is STILL funky. Counterintuitively, the early action is not necessarily a bad point - SA would use old stuff on mock-ups.

*on REAL carbine stocks, when viewed from the side, the down curve is VERY nearly the same as the up curve, and actually appears to form a point. That one has the typical Bubba shape, nicely rounded up from the bottom but only lip service paid to curving the top.

Can you show that thang to Al at Baltimore? I'd really like to get his take.

I GUESS there might be a TEENY TINY chance that it is some sort of prototype. Al would know, he's spent a LOT of time in the back rooms at SA.

[Belling10]

I also noticed the 2 s stamps on the barrel I didn’t notice before45471

[Belling10]

I’d love for him to take a look at it to have some questions answered, but I’m unable to make it. Hopefully someone some day can figure out what it really is. I probably won’t have it long I go to these estate auction for the thrill of the hunt and move on to the next one. The problem with selling this one is What is it?

[2399Whit]

A few things about that 66 carbine raise caution flags. As noted, that stock nose has the wrong shape. It’s more like a Smith carbine. I think the sling bar is too thick as well. It looks like it is modeled on the late production 45-70 bars. The flat in the stock just above the rear lock bolt appears to be shaped wrong, but that may just be the picture angle. The bevel along the barrel should continue around the corner at the breech, or be the “Ski Jump” shape introduced when Springfield ran out of M-1863 stocks to modify. The flat muzzle crown went out with the M-1861 musket. You’d expect the crown to be cut like the 66 though 70 rifles and carbines if this was armory work.

However what got my attention was the comment that someone named Garrett had a carbine like that for sale at Baltimore a few years ago. If that was Frank Garrett, he was a skirmisher in the N-SSA from Va. In addition, he built skirmish guns and had a business importing Italian repros. His ’59 Sharps was probably the best non-US made Sharps repro. It had a chrome bore and even the Lawrence primer worked. He also sold a Mississippi and Zouave rifle. He quit selling repros about 1990. One of his Mississippi’s was my first N-SSA skirmish musket. Although the wood was the usual Italian second quality, it had the correct cartouches. I ended up replacing that stock with a real US walnut stock from the same shop that made stocks for Frank’s (and other builders) custom guns, Guy Owen in Winchester, Va. Guy had a Blanchard lathe in his garage and unlike most stock makers, would do custom work. If you wanted a little cast off in the butt, or a short musket stock without a rod channel for an 1870 carbine, no problem.

Back in the early 1980s, when 50-70 brass was almost impossible to get, you could pick up a cut down 66 barrel with breechblock at the N-SSA nationals for between $20 and $50. They were very common. I built a similar carbine on a cut off ’66 action back then, but mine didn’t turn out as nice as the one here.

Frank died almost exactly 3 years ago, in April of 2016, so we can’t ask him if that carbine is his. Guy crossed the river about 10 years ago, so can’t give him a call either.

Bottom line, it would not surprise me if that carbine is a Frank Garrett special, or possibly from another of the N-SSA custom builders of 40 years ago. There were half a dozen guys in Va., Md. and Pa. doing that kind of work, and some of them were very good.

[Belling10]

I did confirm with the auction house this week it was the estate of Frank Garrett. That answers a lot of question.

[Kragrifle]

To put matters to rest, that is the carbine on Frank Garret’s table from 8-10 years ago. I had seen the carbine a year or two before and it really looked good-except for the nose of the stock. My bet would be that Al might even remember that piece. I’ll ask him this WE in Baltimore.

[Kragrifle]

The ghosts often reappear. One of Frank Garrett’s Sharps carbines is now on Gunbroker.

[Dick Hosmer]

Speaking of ghosts, that's apparently all that's left of this forum.

[free1954]

Speaking of ghosts, that's apparently all that's left of this forum.

indeed sir.

[Tkacook]

I appears that everyone has run off to Facebook which is very sad.

[Carlsr]

Tkacook, Facebook is sad! People on there get upset rather easy.

[Tkacook]

Yes they do!

[Dick Hosmer]

I keep posting really offensive pro-Trump and anti-Democrat stuff; waiting to get my wrist slapped but it hasn't happened yet.

MOST of the gun groups, and model train groups, and car groups, seem to be pretty good. It is the main feed line (I still do NOT fully understand the FB jungle) where the trouble occurs.

[Kragrifle]

Let’s just enjoy old guns and associated American history

[Carlsr]

Dick, Your posts are probably censored off the main feed or even deleted without your knowledge. My brother posts a lot of pro trump, anti Democrat and anti Muslim which puts him in Facebook jail quite often. There is usually a certain person or persons who will become quite disturbed in the trapdoor group. Just mention only using lead bullets not jacketed in you trapdoor as they will wear down the rifling. I find his or their rants rather amusing!