View Full Version : Submarines
Just curious. I constantly watch documentary type shows about naval warfare and how the sailors of WW2 fought almost blindly at times.
I'm wondering if anyone knows how advanced subs are now. Can they use a GPS and satellite system to see what is above them even if they are under water? Can other type ships and planes see the subs better now and detect if they are friend or foe?
I've read where a single sub can carry and launch enough missiles with nuclear warheads to take out an entire nation though that would be a last option.
While the newer destroyers and combat ships have helped make the traditional battleship obsolete I wonder too how safe carriers are. Though they are still in need, advances in enemy subs, ships and planes would make them sitting ducks w/o equivalent or better surveillance systems.
The recent tanker hitting the Iranian mines in the strait of Hormuz shows there is still a lot stuff in the water that isn't detected. Though tankers aren't military ships they should have better detection devices.
Seawater blocks most RF. If you want to use the airwaves you have to run a mast up to the surface, which will leave a visible wake plus if you a transmitting, your emissions can get picked up by unfriendly ears. They had the ELF system for a time, with really long wavelengths, for talking to the subs.
The traditional battleship was made obsolete by the aircraft carrier.
The sailors of W.W. 2 fought early on with W.W. I technology. Improvements in radar, sonar and the ship board weapons used is what beat the U-Boats.
"...how advanced subs are..." There are multiple flavours of submarine now. Not all of 'em even have missiles. All of 'em can communicate via satellite if they're at the right depth via ultra low frequency comms. Pretty much just like always.
Buy a copy of Submarine: A Guided Tour Inside a Nuclear Warship by Tom Clancy. Non-fiction and a good read. All his non-fiction stuff is very good.
Carriers don't travel alone. Their escort ships do a lot of the sniffing around for bad stuff. They do have their own anti-air and missile defences.
"...tankers aren't military ships..." Exactly. Merchant ships are not allowed to be armed. Nor do they have the training to use detection kit. Nor can a tanker move like any warship. They don't always float around the Persian Gulf waiting for the assorted terrs to shoot things at 'em(2 missiles were fired at one today) either.
not sure if any Subs are on display on the Gult Coast,
however,,
if you ever make it to Charleston SC, there are 2,
the Hunley (worth the visit)
and another modern sub (I wanna say 60's vintage, but may be off) you can walk thru at Patriot's Point , or did (don't see it on the website_
they also have a Destroyer, and the Yorktown
https://www.patriotspoint.org/
The traditional battleship was made obsolete by the aircraft carrier.
The sailors of W.W. 2 fought early on with W.W. I technology. Improvements in radar, sonar and the ship board weapons used is what beat the U-Boats.
"...how advanced subs are..." There are multiple flavours of submarine now. Not all of 'em even have missiles. All of 'em can communicate via satellite if they're at the right depth via ultra low frequency comms. Pretty much just like always.
Buy a copy of Submarine: A Guided Tour Inside a Nuclear Warship by Tom Clancy. Non-fiction and a good read. All his non-fiction stuff is very good.
Carriers don't travel alone. Their escort ships do a lot of the sniffing around for bad stuff. They do have their own anti-air and missile defences.
"...tankers aren't military ships..." Exactly. Merchant ships are not allowed to be armed. Nor do they have the training to use detection kit. Nor can a tanker move like any warship. They don't always float around the Persian Gulf waiting for the assorted terrs to shoot things at 'em(2 missiles were fired at one today) either.
I'm not talking about communication thru satellite I'm referring to them being able to see what is above them via satellite and I'm not talking about tankers being armed but having surveillance equipment to spot mines and other obstacles. Carriers were also escorted back in WW2, often by battleships. I'm speaking of technology today.
Through modern technology what can subs see underwater now that they couldn't before and how much easier is it to find underwater subs by others?
JOHN COOK
10-11-2019, 01:32
Through modern technology what can subs see underwater now that they couldn't before and how much easier is it to find underwater subs by others?
Allen, don't know about what they can see but a Nuclear powered Sub can be spotted from the air using Thermal Imagining (sp) due to the heat given off of the exhaust water when generating steam to generate electricity. The props are driven by electricity. I understand they also have a diesel auxiliary engine for emergency. A friend of mine was on one after graduating from the Naval Academy . He said they left port and submerged and he never knew where he was, but someone knew. The only thing that would really force them to surface would be food ( they carry about 2-3 months supply) They used sea water to convert to drinking water and by some method filtered the oxygen and plenty of electricity. They could even control lighting to resemble night and day for sleeping area. I have no reason to doubt him because he was there and I wasn't. His dad died and he was notified but that was it.
john in SC
.
They used sea water to convert to drinking water and by some method filtered the oxygen
Hitler's last ditch subs had a lot of upgrades. They could travel faster under water than on top and had lime O2 scrubbers for the breathing air. These and similar scrubbers are still used today per the programs I watch. Fortunately Germany's new subs came too late for any war effort benefit.
JOHN COOK
10-11-2019, 03:57
Hitler's last ditch subs had a lot of upgrades. They could travel faster under water than on top and had lime O2 scrubbers for the breathing air. These and similar scrubbers are still used today per the programs I watch. Fortunately Germany's new subs came too late for any war effort benefit.
But they had to surface to charge batteries and have fuel to run diesels to charge same.
Yep, Germany was well advanced during WW II but we control the underwater combat abilities today. Current U.S. Subs have 25-30 years fuel capabilities on board.. Like I said , FOOD would be the only reason that they would have to surface...
john
JOHN COOK
10-11-2019, 04:09
if you ever make it to Charleston SC, there are 2,
the Hunley (worth the visit)
and another modern sub (I wanna say 60's vintage, but may be off) you can walk thru at Patriot's Point , or did (don't see it on the website_
The USS CLAGAMORE is the other Sub. at Patriots Point in Charleston, SC. It's about 90 miles from my residence and have visited it many times with grand kid. YORKTOWN is good tour also.
john in SC
But they had to surface to charge batteries and have fuel to run diesels to charge same.
Yes but they didn't have to surface often. The WWII German type XXI diesel electrics were capable of staying submerged for 340 miles at 5 knots without using a snorkel. Modern diesel electrics are much improved over that, the latest German diesel electrics can stay down for six weeks without re charging batteries or "snorkeling" to run their diesels. These boats actually still have a place, their main asset is they are incredibly silent. Hydrophones are not very effective at finding a modern diesel-electric boat. The only way to be sure of finding a modern diesel-electric boat. I know the Soviet ones have countermeasures to passive sonar so except at very close range the only sure fire method to find one is to ping on it which of course gives away the boat doing the search. Also, they don't have the heat signature mentioned by John cook.
On the OP, the USS Cavalla which sank the Japanese carrier Shokako in the battle of the Philippine Sea is at Sea Wolf Park near Galveston Texas. It's preserved in its post war "Guppy" mode.
not sure if any Subs are on display on the Gult Coast,
however,,
if you ever make it to Charleston SC, there are 2,
the Hunley (worth the visit)
I posted an article on this a while back. On display here is the USS Drum submarine from WWII which is at the same park as the USS Alabama battleship from WWII. Beside the Drum is a full scale replica of the CSS Hunley. The original Hunley was built here and the replica was built here in Mobile by a friend of mine.
Vern Humphrey
10-11-2019, 07:44
But they had to surface to charge batteries and have fuel to run diesels to charge same.
They could run the diesels underwater, using the snorkel.
Vern Humphrey
10-11-2019, 07:51
Just as an aside, the Hunley and the Revolutionary War Turtle were not true submarines -- they were just man-powered boats that floated very low in the water.
The first true combat capable submarine was the Fenian Ram designed by John Philip Holland for use by the Fenian Brotherhood, the American counterpart to the Irish Republican Brotherhood, against the British. The Ram's construction and launching in 1881 by the Delamater Iron Company in New York was funded by the Fenians' Skirmishing Fund.
Today the Fenian Ram is on display in the Patterson Museum in Patterson, New Jersey.
I do recall you posting that in the past,
can you board the Sub?
the one in SC is moored, but bottomed out (not sure if on concrete or just the mud) and you can enter and go thru it,
I do recall you posting that in the past,
can you board the Sub?
the one in SC is moored, but bottomed out (not sure if on concrete or just the mud) and you can enter and go thru it,
You can tour it. The old DE Stewart is there as well. Google Sea Wolf Park on Pelican Island and you can check it out.
m1ashooter
10-11-2019, 08:51
Since subs are the silent service you will not find much about their capabilities and what they can see or not see.
I do recall you posting that in the past,
can you board the Sub?
the one in SC is moored, but bottomed out (not sure if on concrete or just the mud) and you can enter and go thru it,
Yes on the sub and battleship.
Few of our secrets are as closely guarded as are the capabilities of a modern sub or carrier and their ability to detect and pursue a target or evade an attacker.
Back in 1992 wife and I visited the USS Alabama and the Drum. Pretty cramped in the sub.
Lyman:
I don't know if you're a fisherman but if you go to Sea Wolf Park to see the Cavalla the fishing on the rocks on the north east corner of the park is about as good as you'll find without a boat.
Back in 1992 wife and I visited the USS Alabama and the Drum. Pretty cramped in the sub.
Yep, not a lot of room. Only small groups at a time can enter. From the pictures it looks like an entrance has been cut out now. Back when I went on it we had to enter through the hatch and climb down the conning tower ladder. Back then it was in the water too and not elevated on dry land like now. A lot of the small rooms set up for display are roped off too making for less walking space on board.
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrExl_FxqFdQQoAmjGJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBs Z29xY3ZzBHNlYwNzZWFyY2gEc2xrA2J1dHRvbg--;_ylc=X1MDOTYwNjI4NTcEX3IDMgRhY3RuA2NsawRjc3JjcHZp ZANYVTllYkRFd0xqSUk5dS5CWGFIRS5RRTFOelV1TVFBQUFBRE RRMHB3BGZyA3lmcC10LXMEZnIyA3NhLWdwBGdwcmlkA1hNYkN3 TXQ2UmdpcXJBSDFyVEdQVEEEbl9zdWdnAzAEb3JpZ2luA2ltYW dlcy5zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0 cmwDBHFzdHJsAzMxBHF1ZXJ5A3VzcyUyMGRydW0lMjBzdWJtYX JpbmUlMjBpbnNpZGUEdF9zdG1wAzE1NzA4ODMzMjk-?p=uss+drum+submarine+inside&fr=yfp-t-s&fr2=sb-top-images.search&ei=UTF-8&n=60&x=wrt&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWFnZXMuc2VhcmNoLnlhaG9v LmNvbS9zZWFyY2gvaW1hZ2VzO195bHQ9QTBnZUpHckJ4cUZkV2 w0QXVscFhOeW9BO195bHU9WDNvRE1URTBNM05sT1RWdEJHTnZi RzhEWW1ZeEJIQnZjd014QkhaMGFXUURRamczTURaZk1RUnpaV0 1EY0dsMmN3LS0_cD11c3MrZHJ1bStzdWJtYXJpbmUmZnIyPXBp di13ZWImZnI9eWZwLXQtcyZndWNjb3VudGVyPTEmZ3VjZV9yZW ZlcnJlcj1hSFIwY0hNNkx5OXpaV0Z5WTJndWVXRm9iMjh1WTI5 dEwzTmxZWEpqYUQ5d1BYVnpjeXRrY25WdEszTjFZbTFoY21sdV pTWm1jajE1Wm5BdGRDMXpKbVp3UFRFbWRHOW5aMnhsUFRFbVky OXdQVzF6Y3labGFUMVZWRVl0T0EmZ3VjZV9yZWZlcnJlcl9zaW c9QVFBQUFONWRsRXZXM0N2Sl9pSEJDcXA4RnNKQnp3TlpnSVlW ZlZWWTV3OVZSSEpqR3Zwb1BzOVNqQ2J0Uk43akdnVjVHOTJteD lXMGcxRWdPdGdkSHRpTFgtRC1YRlRJMEY3X0hsRUNFQTZHNGtk OGIwOTQzMXhsd3dnbzR6YXAzUkJoOWtNaUZCdExXdDBITFl1LW ZxemNqVWFSQTJLaTR3RHFQRE9ZTXNfZHNtZTQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACmG8rbwMLfXYjapm_P-n-GLk13ObaA1e_YM10Y2QoJtIsnxOnYt0IfBO1td4Qgm_eKKPwNs ArJKNb2rheCPMR8NnJclxpVCg-coAj8WX6aUls3u4zHTfAQus-bYAvlWtIJaihI4p0coXemsP0ED55Cv3bZEs0_fJRn4jfwfjZK-#id=34&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ussalabama.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2F13938495_101545803 40663128_7494250571590764614_n.png&action=close
JOHN COOK
10-12-2019, 07:37
Art, you have every right to correct me any time and I want be offended. You stated that they don't have a heat signature and the sure fire method is to ping during a search. I'll post this information and have no further post on this subject. It is very clear to me that a heat pattern is definitely left during the generating steam and dispersing hot or warm water to the surface. FWIW. This information was copied and pasted , not my words..
john in SC
The main difference between conventional submarines and nuclear submarines is the power generation system. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce steam that drives steam turbines ( nuclear marine propulsion). Reactors used in submarines typically use highly enriched fuel (often greater than 20%) to enable them to deliver a large amount of power from a smaller reactor and operate longer between refuelings – which are difficult due to the reactor's position within the submarine's pressure hull.
The nuclear reactor also supplies power to the submarine's other subsystems, such as for maintenance of air quality, fresh water production by distilling salt water from the ocean, temperature regulation, etc. All naval nuclear reactors currently in use are operated with diesel generators as a backup power system. These engines are able to provide emergency electrical power for reactor decay heat removal, as well as enough electric power to supply an emergency propulsion mechanism. Submarines may carry nuclear fuel for up to 30 years of operation. The only resource that limits the time underwater is the food supply for the crew and maintenance of the vessel.
The stealth technology/B [B]weakness[] of nuclear submarines is the need to cool the reactor even when the submarine is not moving; about 70% of the reactor output heat is dissipated into the sea water. This leaves a "thermal wake", a plume of warm water of lower density which ascends to the sea surface and creates a "thermal scar" that is observable by thermal imaging systems, e.g., FLIR.[16] Another problem is that the reactor is always running, creating steam noise, which can be heard on SONAR, and the reactor pump (used to circulate reactor coolant), also creates noise, as opposed to a conventional submarine, which can move about on almost silent electric motors.
Art, you have every right to correct me any time and I want be offended. You stated that they don't have a heat signature and the sure fire method is to ping during a search. I'll post this information and have no further post on this subject. It is very clear to me that a heat pattern is definitely left during the generating steam and dispersing hot or warm water to the surface. FWIW. This information was copied and pasted , not my words..
john in SC
The main difference between conventional submarines and nuclear submarines is the power generation system. Nuclear submarines employ nuclear reactors for this task. They either generate electricity that powers electric motors connected to the propeller shaft or rely on the reactor heat to produce steam that drives steam turbines ( nuclear marine propulsion). Reactors used in submarines typically use highly enriched fuel (often greater than 20%) to enable them to deliver a large amount of power from a smaller reactor and operate longer between refuelings – which are difficult due to the reactor's position within the submarine's pressure hull.
The nuclear reactor also supplies power to the submarine's other subsystems, such as for maintenance of air quality, fresh water production by distilling salt water from the ocean, temperature regulation, etc. All naval nuclear reactors currently in use are operated with diesel generators as a backup power system. These engines are able to provide emergency electrical power for reactor decay heat removal, as well as enough electric power to supply an emergency propulsion mechanism. Submarines may carry nuclear fuel for up to 30 years of operation. The only resource that limits the time underwater is the food supply for the crew and maintenance of the vessel.
The stealth technology/B [B]weakness[] of nuclear submarines is the need to cool the reactor even when the submarine is not moving; about 70% of the reactor output heat is dissipated into the sea water. This leaves a "thermal wake", a plume of warm water of lower density which ascends to the sea surface and creates a "thermal scar" that is observable by thermal imaging systems, e.g., FLIR.[16] Another problem is that the reactor is always running, creating steam noise, which can be heard on SONAR, and the reactor pump (used to circulate reactor coolant), also creates noise, as opposed to a conventional submarine, which can move about on almost silent electric motors.
I can't see that we really have a disagreement. Perhaps I did not make my self clear previously so if that was the case I apologize. My only point was that diesel electric boats have been improved substantially over time and still have a legitimate function.
jon_norstog
10-13-2019, 09:26
What Art says. the new diesel-electric boats are a whole world better than what we saw before the nukes came on. They are quieter and can go deeper than the old U-boats and are a hella lot cheaper than nuclear. Armed with smart cruise missiles they are a real threat to any carrier task force. I'm sure the Navy is working on the problem, but is the political support there?
jn
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.