Early 1870 Rifle

[Tkacook]

So I was looking for another project and purchased this barrel and receiver from eBay. It's a 1870 model Trapdoor. My first 1870 model. All my other 50-70 models are 1866 and 1868 models. When it arrived I noticed the serial number is 9. I have never seen one that low. This one is going to need some TLC before I can reassemble it into a dignified rifle. Hate this got parted out, but at least it survived. I will treat it well.

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[Dick Hosmer]

Hmmmm. 1870s were not NORMALLY numbered, and, that is not the usual (larger) italic font of the period. I own 77|77 but on the bottom in the usual font.

So, it MIGHT not be SA, though at this point I do not know how you would tell.

IF that truly IS M1870 #9, it is entirely possible that it could have been so marked for fitting-up. Someone wanted to keep them together - that's clear.

The VERY low-numbered 1868s at SA (like 10, 12) are numbered with the font very similar to what you show. Perhaps the "experimental" area had their own stamps?

Bottom line, it's well worth cleaning up and keeping track of!

I might want to use the side view in the revised .58-50 m/s which I am VERY SLOWING working on, if that is OK?

Thanks for sharing!

[Tkacook]

There is an X on the barrel on the opposite side. I did notice the number font is small compared to the 1868 models I have.

I have no issue with you using the picture at all. I noticed he had what he says is 1868 #24 as well. I went back and looked at completed auctions and looked to see if he sold the breech block as well. I didn't see one that would fit this time frame going back to July. Never know what he might have listed.

Here's #24.

46624

[Carlsr]

Tkacook, I purchased that barrel this morning after offering a buy now price to the seller!! Was the one you purchased listed as an 1868 or 1870? I have a stock for an 1868 that I planed on using but after looking at the photo's you posted and the seller's photo's I believe it has the short receiver? If it turns out to have the short receiver I do have an 1870 breech block but that one is stamped model 1870. The sight on this barrel is close to the receiver so that breech block would only be marked 1870 if I'm correct?? I believe I purchased another project that will require locating parts that are few and hard to find.

[Tkacook]

The one I purchased was listed as a model 1863. He does that a good bit. Goes by the lock date. I couldn't tell if 24 had a long nose or short one based on the picture. I believe the word model was added to the 1870 rifles and that a 1868 would only have the date. I believe that is correct. I like projects. Get carried away sometimes. Have to be patient to not over pay. Glad another member here got 24!

[Carlsr]

I downloaded the photo and zoomed in on it. Looks to be a short receiver but I didn't really look at it closely when purchased as I thought it was a low serial numbered 68. If it is an 1870 I will once again be looking for a stock, was lucky last time as Al had one. Projects are fun, last one was cleaning up a carbine that had paint and grime all over it. This one will take a bit longer I suspect but that is part of the fun and sometimes I do get carried away!!!

[Kragrifle]

Is there a difference in the 1870 and 1868 stocks?

[Dick Hosmer]

Yes, but not the one I THINK you suspect. The 'ski slope' (term invented by Al Frasca I believe) profile to the top of the off-side stock flat occurs on most all 1870 stocks.

I'm guessing that you might have been - since it is the most visible difference between the models - asking is there a difference in the length of the receiver inletting. Yes, there is, but short-inletted stocks are VERY rare. A dear friend of mine, now deceased, found one and SOMEWHERE in my "archives" I have a picture of the two stocks, side by side. Could not find it in 2006, but hope to have it for the pending second edition of "58/50".

The truth of the matter is that the two stocks are basically interchangeable, and with all of the hands they have passed through, it's hard to tell EXACTLY what is "right" for a given specimen, since, for example, an 1868 with the ski-lift COULD be a legitimate service replacement for a broken stock.

[Carlsr]

Dick, From what I have read in your book and Al's it seems that the information is somewhat different and thereby a little confusing. In Al's book he states that there should only be 3 cartouche marks on an 1870 and in your's it states anywhere from 2 to 4 cartouche marks. A parts dealer in Allentown told me there should never be more than 3??
In your book you say that 1870 models used 1868 stocks which did not have the ski slope. Was the ski slope added to some stocks along with new inspection marks and some that may have just been reused on the M70's? I believe the barrel I purchased which is #24 above posted by Tkacook that I bought on E bay may be an 1870 but won't be sure until it arrives, possibly by Friday. It was listed as an 1868 but after looking closer at the pictures it seems to have a short receiver. Bought it with intentions to use the M68 stock I have along with the fact that it seems to have a low serial number.

[Dick Hosmer]

Carl, in case of any discrepancy, I would always defer to Al.

And, THANK YOU for bringing this up. I am in the process of updating "58/50" and want to catch any such errors, etc. IIRC, I was unclear on exactly what was meant by the ski-slope when I was writing it almost 30 years ago (!) and may have laid some bad groundwork that never got changed.

[Carlsr]

Dick, Was not sure if it was a discrepancy or just your conclusion on M70's.
WOW!!! 30 years ago, was not aware the book was written that long ago. It's a great book which I take to gun shows for reference along with your 45/70 book.
What's your opinion on barrel # 24?

[Dick Hosmer]

Well, I'll get to the bottom of it one way or another - whatever it was!

Not QUITE 30 years, though the carbine # log was started in the 1970s.

I'm not clear on #24. Is it a long or short receiver? If long, it might be OK. Well, either way, it MIGHT be OK! The current understanding on 1870s is that they were NOT numbered - and certainly the MAJORITY aren't; yet, SOME are, and in several varying formats! Probably the most common variety is a four-digit number on the barrel ONLY, sometimes on the right and sometimes on the left.

So, is #24 very early, some sort of experiment, or some later need - by party unknown - to keep the bits together. For my money, it is still an open discussion.

I do not believe that I have info on when the small font was dropped on the very first 1868s. I do know that #31 IS in the traditional italic fancy-serif font which is common to all later 1868s.

[Carlsr]

Dick, received #24 today. It does have a short receiver but the witness marks do not line up. If I were to turn the barrel to tighten it up" barrel is not loose" the witness mark and patina marks would line up?? Perhaps someone tried to remove the receiver but then who knows. The number looks to have been on both barrel and receiver for some time so I do not believe that they were put there recently.
I know that the early 68 barrels were lined and seems this barrel is lined or could just be marks from the early single shoulder ramrod. Not sure if I should keep it or send it back. Rifling looks OK with with some pitting at the muzzle end.
Were the 100 M70's fitted with the metcalfe devise numbered? Just grasping at stones LOL!! Here are some pictures.
466424664346644

[Dick Hosmer]

Well, a short receiver with the tight sight would/could/might appear to indicate one of the 1000 trials rifles. Just cannot say for sure. If the barrel is lined you should be able to see braze, otherwise it could be battering.

I have such an arm (complete) but it is not numbered like #24. In fact it has one of the mysterious "high" 4-digit numbers (4228) on the right side of the barrel only. It also has the ski-slope stock.

Don't know what to say about keeping it :icon_lol:

[Carlsr]

Dick, sold it today in Allentown. Just did not want to pursue another endless money pit on a barrel with possibly a not so good history?? Got what I paid for it so all is good. I also sold an 1868 stock that was on my 1870 before replacing it. For once I went to a show and came home with more money than I took:icon_lol: I did get an 1873 dated lock plate and type I hammer for my 1881 stared carbine
so now it is as it should be.
Thanks for all your input, very much appreciated!!

[Dick Hosmer]

Wish I was close to the Allentown show! I happened to be East on business over a weekend in the early '90s and squeezed in a visit with Frank Mallory whom I'd met once before. My company was very understanding - if I paid the extra hotel days & meals they had NO problem if I split time on a job. Got in some interesting trips to places I'd never have been able to visit, that way. SRS, Dixie Gun Works, numerous CW battlefields, etc.

Frank and I went to the show, along with Wayne Gagner. Met Joe DeChristopher and Burt Kellerstadt! I could not believe what was available. Want a CW musket? What year, what contractor, what condition, what price? We'd be lucky to see two or three a year out here. Want a M1880 triangle rod bayonet? Choice of 4 - something you could go five years without seeing even one in CA. I was like a kid in a candy store. Didn't have any funds available at the time but it was sure fun to look.

[Carlsr]

It is an awesome show with many c/w rifles and old flintlocks as well, one day I'm going to get me a flint lock and a c/w musket!!

[Dick Hosmer]

Far from being "pricey", that is a VERY good deal, and is a rare throwback to Cabela's early days when they would give away gems and attempt to rape you for turds because they didn't have a clue as what they were handling. It's easy to spend other people's money, but if I were still dealing, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. It's better than mine, but I'm no longer upgrading. If you ever thought of getting one, I'd go for it.

I hesitate to suggest this, but I have a duplicate TRB for sale for exactly what I paid for it ($1495) plus shipping. It is VERY rough - the only time I ever got burned on Gunbroker - but it is complete (other than having the swivels cut off the upper band) and collector-correct. I'll throw in a band to the buyer.

[Carlsr]

I have sent e mails to purchase it and have called, left message and also call the store but no one is available in the gun library to speak to :evil6:
Do you have photo's available for your TRB?
Finally got through and it was sold : (

[Dick Hosmer]

Didn't think it would last long at that price! Sorry you missed it.

I'll try to get some pics of my spare TRB over the next couple of days.

[Tkacook]

He has listed another low serial number 1870. This time 33. The numbers are stacked. Interesting looking piece. My number 9 is cleaning up nicely. Just need to find all the missing parts!

#33
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[Carlsr]

He changed the date on that one after I told him the one I purchased was not a 68 but rather a 70. Mine, #24 seemed to be a barrel that someone either tried to put together or take apart. The witness marks were way off. He offered me to send it back but I sold it in Allentown yesterday for what I paid. 1870 stocks are hard to come by and the one I purchased from Al I got lucky on. I like doing projects as you learn what the correct parts are for different models but think I'm going to go back to buying complete rifles. Just seems you spend more putting one together than actually buying one complete, just my 2 cents. I will continue to replace broken or incorrect parts like on the carbine I purchased off gun broker. Bought the correct lock plate and hammer yesterday and is now installed,looks great I might add : )

- - - Updated - - -

Dick, I sent an e mail Friday when I saw it wanting to purchase it. I called them back a little latter and told them but seems the purchaser had bought it the same day. They have another but have not posted it yet. This one from the sounds of it the stock has been sanded. There is no circle P and a very light cartouche along with the bore not as good as the one just sold. Did any of the 1001 made have a dated lock plate?
I'll be watching for the photos

[70ish]

I did get an 1873 dated lock plate and type I hammer for my 1881 stared carbine
so now it is as it should be.
Thanks for all your input, very much appreciated!!

I'm curious as to why you bought a type 1 hammer and an 1873 dated lock plate for you 1881 made carbine?

[Carlsr]

70ish, It is an 1881 stared carbine. These were carbines and rifles that used parts from the rifles that were turned in with serial numbers under 50000. Parts that could be reused were utilized on these 1880 and 1881 stared arms. Some were issued with the new lock plate and hammer of the period and some with the 1873 dated lock plates and type I or type II hammers. In Al Frascas's book page 106,107,108. My carbine is not listed but it is within a couple numbers listed that were issued with old locks and hammers. Mine was updated for the SA war so it has the 1888 style lock plate and serrated trigger. It was quite dirty and covered with paint so I cleaned it up and made it as original as possible. I wanted to replace the buffington rear sight with the original issued one but you could tell were the new sight and M90 barrel band was so I left it as is.

[Tkacook]

He changed the date on that one after I told him the one I purchased was not a 68 but rather a 70. Mine, #24 seemed to be a barrel that someone either tried to put together or take apart. The witness marks were way off. He offered me to send it back but I sold it in Allentown yesterday for what I paid. 1870 stocks are hard to come by and the one I purchased from Al I got lucky on. I like doing projects as you learn what the correct parts are for different models but think I'm going to go back to buying complete rifles. Just seems you spend more putting one together than actually buying one complete, just my 2 cents. I will continue to replace broken or incorrect parts like on the carbine I purchased off gun broker. Bought the correct lock plate and hammer yesterday and is now installed,looks great I might add : )

- - - Updated - - -

Dick, I sent an e mail Friday when I saw it wanting to purchase it. I called them back a little latter and told them but seems the purchaser had bought it the same day. They have another but have not posted it yet. This one from the sounds of it the stock has been sanded. There is no circle P and a very light cartouche along with the bore not as good as the one just sold. Did any of the 1001 made have a dated lock plate?
I'll be watching for the photos

Carlsr,

I don't disagree about buying a part at a time for a project can be expensive. I do get to learn more about how these things are assembled. I do try and buy lots and get several parts at once, but it's easy to over spend. I take my time usually and try to keep the cost down. I guess I am officially looking for a 1870 model stock at this point. One will come along eventually.

[Dick Hosmer]

No, I'd definitely NOT expect, or want, to see a dated lockplate on a TRB.

[Carlsr]

Thanks Dick, there are a couple more listed on GI. Most are posted by Collectors Firearms. There is one posted by a private dealer but it has a dated lock plate.