View Full Version : Shoulder set back.
In a recent discussion of the use of an RCBS precision mic for determining shoulder setback when resizing cases the question of what does one do once steel on steel contact is made between your shell holder and the bottom of the sizing die and you would like to have more set back.
This was my response.
The RCBS Precision Mic has been a very useful tool in my workshop. I often use a know good headspace gauge to confirm readings. Being from the " old school" I still believe in using the correct tool for each purpose.
If you are getting to the steel and steel contact and are looking for more setback, Redding makes shell holders of varying depths for that purpose. Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification.
https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/Redding%20shellholder%20box_zpsvgimyhtb.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/Redding%20shellholder%20box_zpsvgimyhtb.jpg.html)
https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/Redding%20shell%20holders._zpssmypk6ti.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/Redding%20shell%20holders._zpssmypk6ti.jpg.html)
My poor-man's solution to the problem:
https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1ZRU9_AS02?$mdmain$
The feeler gage: For years and years I have sized cases for short chambers; Thousands of reloaders have laughed it off because they could not understand but I used the feeler gage before Skip had shims and Redding had competition shell holders. For me Skips shims and Redding competition shell holders has never bee necessary.
If the reloaders is wanting to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the case head the Redding competition shell holders are useless; but if the reloader wants to reduce the length of the case between the shoulder/datum to the case head he must use feeler gages between the deck of the shell holder and case head.
Other benefits, the feeler gage increases tha ability of the press to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing and if a reloader wanders if he needs a small base die he can sue the feeler gage.
More times than not the reloader has no clue if the case has been sized, they pull the handle, the ram does up and then they change the direction of the ram (like little Jack Horner setting in the corner checking his pie) the reloader removes the case after sizing only to find the case will not chamber. The reloader should be able to determine if the case was sized, A reloader with a mechanical aptitude should be able to determine if the case was sized before lowering the ram; with a feeler gage! Because; if the case was not sized the die does not make it to the top of the shell holder.
If a reloader had the ability to determine if the case has been sized before lowering the ram he could remove the die with the case protruding from the bottom, it is possible; it is not my job to convince reloaders they can do it. Anyhow, if the reloaders removes the die with the case from the press before lowering the ram he should have no problem measuring the case head protrusion from the die. Why? The deck height of the shell holder is .125", if the case head protrudes from the die .125" the case had been full length sized to minimum length.
And then there is the old verifying test. I use a head space gage, shell holder and die and we do not want to forget the 'feeler gage'.
F. Guffey
If you are getting to the steel and steel contact and are looking for more setback, Redding makes shell holders of varying depths for that purpose. Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification.
The old shoulder set back; I say it is impossible to set/move the shoulder back with a die that has full case body support and then you make a calim the Redding shell holders move the shoulder back when it is just the opposite. The Redding competition shell holders prevent the reloader from shortning the cas3e between the shoulder and case head.
But you have nothing to worry about, I doubt there is a reloaders on this forum that understood what you were caliming.
Again, I size/form cases for short chambers, the only way reloaders on the internet could do that was to grind the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die. They claimed the answer was 'no biggy', just frind away. I have recommended RCBS shell holders because they fit like a hand me down shrt, they fit where they touch. Most RCBS shell holdrs have at least .010: clearance between the deck of the shell holder and case head, now find me a reloader that has ever measured.
What does that mean? It means I can raise the case head off of the deck of the shell holder .010" when forming and or sizing cases for short chambers.
And then there are other seell holders like Herter, Herter shell holders have a different type of advantage, Herter shell holders fit, it would take me all day long to expalin the advantage of a shell holder that fits and then there is the reason Herter made them that way.
F. Guffey
Works great for my precision ammo when stock shell holders don't get the job done without modification.
When 'stock' shell holders do not get 'it' done do like I did before Redding made competition shell holders: I adjusted the die off the shell holder with precision. I placed a feeler gage between the top pf the shell holder and bottom of the die. There are a few things that do on that seem to complicate it for reloaders. I have one rifle with a 30/06 chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length chamber. When adjusting/forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die .014" off the shell holder and I use 280 Remington cases because the 280 Remington case is longer from the shoulder to the case head .051"; and I ask, how can a reloader miss when he has .051" to play with.
F. Guffey
When in doubt, toss a frag and be done with it.
When in doubt, toss a frag and be done with it.
Why? You started typing in lofty terms about something you misunderstood and had no experience with. The Redding Competition shell holders increase the length of the case from the datum to the case head, they do not allow the reloaders to shorten the length of the case from the datum to the case head. The reloaders has 5 options when using the Redding shell holders.
Without the Redding Competition shell holders I have 25 options from minimum length to infinity or a more practice .020" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. AND! I have the option of sizing cases for short chambers, when using the RCBS shell holders I have 10 options.
And I am lucky, my cases do not have head space, my chamber has a head space dimension from the datum to the bolt face, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.
You do not have to thank me for my efforts but those that were going to take you seriously got a lesson when taking advise on the Internet. There are a lot of lonely reloaders on reloading forums that take themselves too seriously; they got a poor start and never caught up.
F. Guffey
Why? You started typing in lofty terms about something you misunderstood and had no experience with. The Redding Competition shell holders increase the length of the case from the datum to the case head, they do not allow the reloaders to shorten the length of the case from the datum to the case head. The reloaders has 5 options when using the Redding shell holders.
Without the Redding Competition shell holders I have 25 options from minimum length to infinity or a more practice .020" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. AND! I have the option of sizing cases for short chambers, when using the RCBS shell holders I have 10 options.
And I am lucky, my cases do not have head space, my chamber has a head space dimension from the datum to the bolt face, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head.
You do not have to thank me for my efforts but those that were going to take you seriously got a lesson when taking advise on the Internet. There are a lot of lonely reloaders on reloading forums that take themselves too seriously; they got a poor start and never caught up.
F. Guffey
Yes indeed, one of us has no idea what he is talking about, and my friend, that would not be me.
A tiny bit of study, on one's part, would show exactly my point for using these shell holders to do exactly what I have described.
Your negative interpretation is of no benefit to the thread. I would suggest you might take your head out of dark places and into the light.
This thread was started as informational and one possible option only and certainly not as a topic for a google type debate.
In a recent discussion of the use of an RCBS precision mic for determining shoulder setback when resizing cases the question of what does one do once steel on steel contact is made between your shell holder and the bottom of the sizing die and you would like to have more set back.
I can not type any slower; the Redding Competition shell holders do not move the shoulder when shorten the case between the shoulder and case head, Reloaders in the old days would grind the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die when the case had more resistance to sizing than the press would produce. You will not believe what they called me when I informed them grinding the shell holder and or die was a bad habit. they did not believe me when I informed them I had a grinder that would grind shell holders and or the bottom of dies.
When shortening the distance between the shoulder and case head part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck and part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder. O do not expect a reloader to be able to keep up; the shoulder does not move, it is impossible to move the shoulder on a case on a case with a die that has bull body support.
And the best a reloaders can say is yes I can because we all know what the other means. I can not believe you accept that shabby answer.
F. Guffey
In practice, I have found that after annealing to a point in the area from 3/8" below the shoulder to the case mouth, that it is indeed quite easy to move the brass around to conform to desired positions.. Nothing is written in stone, as you know, and that would most certainly include individual's description of the process they are using and it's effect on casing makeup and physical measurements. After all, it is a hobby. One that I have enjoyed immensely since the 1960s and hope to for another bunch of years.
We are only indicating a few thousandths movement of material so it really is not a big deal. With 5 to 10k of .308 cases prepped and fired annually on my range, we have managed to make it work for us. Not asking for you approval Sir, just stating my observations and sharing with those that might be a little more involved than the average generic handloader.
https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/Annealing%201_zpst8nr1k5w.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/Annealing%201_zpst8nr1k5w.jpg.html)
Looking carefully at the brass in my cooling pan, one will notice that the brass in annealed farther down the case body than standard military cases. Works for me.
https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/Annealing%202_zpst0sy0irt.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/Annealing%202_zpst0sy0irt.jpg.html)
Anyhow, if the reloaders removes the die with the case from the press before lowering the ram
Guffy - The case slides into the shell holder from the side. With the ram raised and the case in the die, how do you unscrew the die to remove from the press without backing the case out of the die?
Parashooter
11-01-2019, 01:58
. . . The case slides into the shell holder from the side. With the ram raised and the case in the die, how do you unscrew the die to remove from the press without backing the case out of the die?
Simple: lower the ram slightly (just enough to ease friction between case head and shellholder), rotate the shellholder so the slot for the case is opposite the slot in the ram for the shellholder, slide out the shellholder. This works for most common single-station presses, perhaps not all designs.
Since wr are dealing in thousanths, even this movement could cause inaccuracy.
maybe even better, when rhe case is inserted, curn the shell holder before sizing....
Parashooter
11-01-2019, 11:32
Since wr are dealing in thousanths, even this movement could cause inaccuracy.
No. The small amount of ram movement to ease friction lies within normal "slop" of the fit between case rim and shellholder. Done right, the case remains totally undisturbed in the die. (Shellholders are normally made with enough clearance to accept a rim significantly thicker than specs.)
Who's on first? \
I can not believe there are that many reloaders on this forum that appreciates that kind of answer, about the time I did not believe you could get sillier, you got sillier.
F. Guffey
Since we are dealing in thousandths, even this movement could cause inaccuracy.
No, I said RCBS shell holders are my favorite because they do not fit unless we are talking about 'loose'. And then there are Herter shell holders, herter shell holders are held in bu set screws, to remove the die and case from a Herter press looseen the set screws and then remove the shell holder with the case and die. or lower the ram and then remove the shell holder.
The RCBS shell holder has .010" movement/clearance between the deck of the shell holder and case head. For that reason there is no reason to distrube anything. And then" If the reloader adjusted the die down to the shell holder with an additional 1/4 turn (.017") the die should make it to the top of the die without a gap between the top of the shell holder and top of the press. If when sizing cases with that adjustment the reloaders notices a gap between the die and shell holder he can measure the gap with a feeler gage.
the gap is caused by the cases ability to resist sizing, there are times it is necessary to lower the die an 1/4 turn or anneal the case.
Understand there are reloaders in the claim department that claim they have fired cases 45 times with full loads without any of these problems.
F. Guffey
Easiest solution today would be to use a Forster Co -Ax press and not have to worry about shell holders at all.
Easiest solution today would be to use a Forster Co -Ax press and not have to worry about shell holders at all.
most of my loading is on that press,
best one to have,
I use it more than my Dillon or single stages
\
I can not believe there are that many reloaders on this forum that appreciates that kind of answer, about the time I did not believe you could get sillier, you got sillier.
F. Guffey
That is the result of replying to my post which was posted twice. Thus "Who's on first?" I went back and changed the double post to "Since we're dealing....." What's to not appreciate?
Life is way too short to be grumpy and negative.
A little humor can be a good thing.
Lighten up and isn't that I don't know on third?
Easiest solution today would be to use a Forster Co -Ax press and not have to worry about shell holders at all.
I doubt the co-ax press can make up for what the reloaders does not know. Nothing makes up for what a reloaderd does not know.
F. Guffey
I doubt the co-ax press can make up for what the reloaders does not know. Nothing makes up for what a reloaderd does not know.
F. Guffey
maybe you should publish a book or manual
I doubt the co-ax press can make up for what the reloaders does not know. Nothing makes up for what a reloaderd does not know.
F. Guffey
Amazing just how little faith a person can have in his comrades.
Or is it a darn thing where one knows more and better than anyone on the block.
Sure not a team player, sorry to say.
No. The small amount of ram movement to ease friction lies within normal "slop" of the fit between case rim and shellholder. Done right, the case remains totally undisturbed in the die. (Shellholders are normally made with enough clearance to accept a rim significantly thicker than specs.)
Again, the die was adjusted 1/4 turn (.017") beyond contact; nothing complicated about that. When the case was sized the die did not make it to the shell holder; meaning there is from little to no chance the case is going to move.
There are very few reloaders that have ever determine how much clearance there is between the deck of the shell holder and case head. The RCBS shell holder has .010" clearance (almost) without exception. All a reloader should have to do is 'back off' the handle, rotate the shell holder until it can be removed from the ram and case at the same time.
One more time: Because of utility RCBS is my favorite, with nothing but a feeler gage I can size cases for short chambers, with a .010" thick feeler gage I can sized cases that are .015 thousands shorter than a go-gage chamber. Again; going the other was I can go to infinity or a more practical .016" longer than a minimum length case from the shoulder to the case head, that would be .002" longer than a field reject length chamber.
Again, Herter Shell holders do not offer the utility of the RCBS shell holder but it does have utility not offered by shell holders that fit like a hand-me down shirts' as in fitting only where they touch.
Now? If your press is in some kind of a bind think about having it checked out.
F. Guffey
And then there is cam over: I have three Rock Chuckers, not one of the three cams over meaning the Rock Chucker is not a bump press.
Again: I have 12 Herter presses, 5 different kind, all 12 of my Herter presses cam over, the Herter press is a bump press because they cam over.
F. Guffey
Amazing just how little faith a person can have in his comrades.
Or is it a dem thing where one knows more and better than anyone on the block.
Sure not a team player, sorry to say.
pm sent
I don't have a dog in this fight and should stay out of it but see some of the ol' time posters here having more than a little disagreement.
The more technical something gets the more opinions and experiences differ sometimes and what works for some may not work for everyone. Everyone seems to mean well but what one person has to work with may not relate to what another uses or works for him.
Hopefully we won't lose any more members due to finding a toxic environment here. This isn't even the political forum.
Like so many things, we can all do the same job but the path we take to get there may be a little different. Suggestions can be very helpful and appreciated but they aren't meant to be the law of the land.
I like a little humor too and this forum can use more of it as long it isn't insulting. My 2 cents worth.
maybe you should publish a book or manual
Just to find out I mentioned super crimping as in beyond 45 pounds of bullet hole to bullet hold that exceeded what my Hornady leaver type puller would move and my RCBS collet puller did not do better. I had to abuse the press and bullets to pull the bullets.
And then I mentioned a had a few thoughts about measuring the length of cases from the shouldr/datum to the case head that could be compared to 'as fast as the cases could be picked up'.
That post disappeared in less than 24 hours, that would be moderates protecting members, and then there are those that are scared of a member that knows more about reloading than they do.
I do not know how sincere you are because I have never taken you seriously when you have responded to anything I have posted.
But I did give it a little thought, one of my granddaughters was stuck with me during a time she should have been in daycar and or have someone to great her when she got out of school. I can say it is a complimeent when someone thinks she is a little different, when that happens my wife, her grandmother points at me.
Reloading forums have too many excluder members, They only want 'yes' men, my life has been most interesting because I am not a 'yes' man.
F. Guffey
That is the result of replying to my post which was posted twice. Thus "Who's on first?" I went back and changed the double post to "Since we're dealing....." What's to not appreciate?
Forgive, I thought I was qouting nf1e, he thought he should be getting all of the attention, I do appreciated memberst that do not act like they are in grade school.
Again, please forgive.
F. Guffey
The old Buddhist saying: "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is a mountain." Translated: keep it simple for beginners, then for advanced students, complexity enters, and finally for masters, simplicity returns with an understanding of deeper principles.
Size the case to the chamber. Measure the setup, measure the result, through a means sufficient. That's all it is. I would shoot Me. Guffey's reloads. I would shoot Mr. nf1e's reloads. I shoot my own reloads.
You have my attention and my forgiveness.
Please don't even attempt to guess what I am thinking.
Heck, I can't figure that out myself half the time.
Tis a hobby to be enjoyed by all.
And then there is cam over: I have three Rock Chuckers, not one of the three cams over meaning the Rock Chucker is not a bump press.
Again: I have 12 Herter presses, 5 different kind, all 12 of my Herter presses cam over, the Herter press is a bump press because they cam over.
F. Guffey
While true about the Rock Chucker, I do not see how this has bearing on the topic and may only add confusion.
Just to find out I mentioned super crimping as in beyond 45 pounds of bullet hole to bullet hold that exceeded what my Hornady leaver type puller would move and my RCBS collet puller did not do better. I had to abuse the press and bullets to pull the bullets.
And then I mentioned a had a few thoughts about measuring the length of cases from the shouldr/datum to the case head that could be compared to 'as fast as the cases could be picked up'.
That post disappeared in less than 24 hours, that would be moderates protecting members, and then there are those that are scared of a member that knows more about reloading than they do.
I do not know how sincere you are because I have never taken you seriously when you have responded to anything I have posted.
But I did give it a little thought, one of my granddaughters was stuck with me during a time she should have been in daycar and or have someone to great her when she got out of school. I can say it is a complimeent when someone thinks she is a little different, when that happens my wife, her grandmother points at me.
Reloading forums have too many excluder members, They only want 'yes' men, my life has been most interesting because I am not a 'yes' man.
F. Guffey
I was actually being serious,
as long as you put those thought down in a non condescending way (your posts tend to read as if you are talking down to everyone on the boards,,,) they could be a valuable resource to reloaders.
no one here (at least in this section) is looking for a yes man,, some are looking to validate what they do, re reloading, some to learn, some to seek alternative methods or thoughts
as long as they are safe practices, no moderator would do any editing or deleting, but I cannot speak of the post you say was removed, that would have been done by JeffL or Sysad,
one thing that does not need to happen is for tempers to flare, or insults made, no matter how veiled, (perception is sometimes difficult on the web),
that should not be tolerated
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The old Buddhist saying: "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is a mountain." Translated: keep it simple for beginners, then for advanced students, complexity enters, and finally for masters, simplicity returns with an understanding of deeper principles.
Size the case to the chamber. Measure the setup, measure the result, through a means sufficient. That's all it is. I would shoot Me. Guffey's reloads. I would shoot Mr. nf1e's reloads. I shoot my own reloads.
well said
But I did give it a little thought, one of my granddaughters was stuck with me during a time she should have been in daycar and or have someone to great her when she got out of school. I can say it is a complimeent when someone thinks she is a little different, when that happens my wife, her grandmother points at me.
"I did give it a little thought" The wife came home to find the TV off, no Sponge Bob, no Veggie Tells etc.. She went to the shop and there was her granddaughter sizing 30/06 cases with a chant/by the numbers. She could not see over the shell holder, she had to located it with one hand and insert the case with the other. And then she raised the ram with both hands; once the case would hold the ram she changed her grip to overhead and then finished sizing. It was all she could do when lowering the sized case, it took both hands.
She would ask about ever case she sized; it was about that time grandma opened the door, the granddaughter hardly slowed down, The wife was not horrified but she was aware of the possibility of crushing hands and fingers. Explaining to my wife the press she was using was not in the habit of the handle falling by accident the possibility always existed.
Point? If my granddaughter has no interest in making a video it will not get done. Back in the old days the men had a lot of trouble learning to fly the B29; SO? Boeing trained women as flying instructors. It was then the men learned to fly the B29 and they realized how easy it was.
F. Guffey
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