Philippine constabulary carbine, is this legit?

[Bolomauser]

Hello gentleman, I was sent here from Gunboard’s by the guys in the US forum who informed me this was the place to find out about this rifle. I didn’t even know this forum existed so I’m glad to find another knowledgeable group to discuss this old stuff with. The following is what I have from my Gunboards post, I appreciate anything you can give me, and thanks in advance!

I saw this Krag Carbine listed as a Philippine Constabulary carbine in the catalog of an auction I was following, I had no previous knowledge of these guns but after some cursory was digging I decided to throw out a low bid and take the chance that it might be legit. Worst that could happen is I get a nice handy Krag carbine before deer season right? Well now that it’s in hand I have to say I’m still not sure whether this things legit. The barrel is turned down for a bayonet and the work looks legitimate. The end cap/bayonet lug has some wood overhang which it seems is correct and the plug in the end looks to be very tight. The cut on the end, like the muzzle turn down appears very old and the wear looks commensurate with the rest of the rifle. Same goes for the wear on the band itself. That same front band however doesn’t appear to have a pin holding it in, and when I look with a light there doesn't even appear to be a hole drilled through the stock for a pin or screw. The front band is very solidly attached though and the gun is awfully dirty so I guess maybe I’m missing something. Also band’s bayonet lug looks like the one on my 1905 production M1903 and does not fit the 1897 marked bayonet that I have, but my 1905 Springfield pattern bayonet didn’t click in either. Both fit alright over the lug and around the barrel, and the lug looks unmolested. It could just be old and need some finesse there and I didn’t want to force anything. Stock is “P” marked behind the trigger guard, with a 21 in front of it. Receiver says model 1898 and the stock has a 1907 mark on the cartouche which I can’t seem to read. The rear sight is markedly different from my 1898 Full size but I know Krag sights are a whole thing unto themselves. The Krag is a mysterious beast and these seem even more so, maybe you guys can fill me in.

I am having a hard time uploading pictures so I’m going to include the link to those uploaded on the other forum while I work on it. Thanks in advance for any info!

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1118191-Krag-Philippine-Constabulary-Carbine-did-I-strike-gold&p=9957997#post9957997

[butlersrangers]

IMHO - You would have been better advised to post your question on the Krag Collector's Association Forum. (I don't mean to offend. There just would have been more response).

FWIW - Your short Krag shows very crude workmanship and does not appear to be a Philippine Constabulary carbine or the identical looking School Rifle. These arms were made from real model 1898 and model 1899 carbines and had distinctive 'Cartouche' markings. (I believe your cartouche is a typical "J.S.A. 1901" - for Joseph Sumner Adams, 1901 acceptance).

Your Krag appears to be a cut-down rifle. The muzzle crown and 'step' do not look dimensionally correct. Your front-sight base appears 're-attached' and not the smooth dovetail & bronze brazing seen on a true Krag carbine barrel/front-sight.

The front barrel-band does not fit the barrel contour and is not properly fitted to the wood. Your stock forearm is crudely beveled and steps-down just behind the front barrel-band. This is not correct.

Your rear sight is a model 1896 rifle sight. The Philippine Constabulary and School Rifles are believed to have used 1901 and 1902 carbine rear-sights.

Sorry, but, you do not have the real thing.

[Bolomauser]

Well that’s kind of a downer, but I didn’t pay too much for it and now I have a cool carbine, and I don’t have tool worry about taking it in the woods and denting you’re a real one. Thank you very much for the info, that’s exactly what I came here for!

[70ish]

Not all is lost for you. If you check the brass bits on the sling, look for an indication of 'Pat by Mills & Orndorff'. If it's there, you
have a somewhat rare Web sling that was provided for use in the Philippines during the Krag era. The sling, if complete (at it looks to be),
has a worth of approximately $100. I've heard of values upwards from that, but I wouldn't count it yet.

[Bolomauser]

Thank you for the info on the sling, it is marked as you describe so that’s a nice little win. It came with a nice 1897 bayonet and scabbard as well so I have that too. While cleaning the grease out of it last night I discovered that the stock is spliced under the rear barrel band. I wonder if perhaps this is one of the rifles that was made up by an outfitter after being sold as surplus?

[jon_norstog]

Bolo, there were a lot of Krag rifles sold cheaply back in the day, and a lot of them got into the hands of people who couldn't afford a sporting rifle. The favored pattern for butchering a rifle was the carbine, so there are scads of those around. They make a decent hunting rifle and, as you say, it's no big deal if you drop one hard on a scree slope. There are a fair number of "school gun" copies as well. Maybe they made them up for Jr. drill teams or something. If the barrel is good, you've got a decent shooter there.

Good luck!

jn

[jon_norstog]

PS: Dick Hosmer is of the opinion that all the Constabulary rifles were called in and dumped in deep water. My own thought, based on my experiences with Filipino guys in the service, is that at least some of those guns were stashed away and may still be in the descendant families of the original Constable to whom they were issued. I'm surprised he hasn't weighed in on this particular weapon.

[Bolomauser]

I’d certainly be interested in his opinion. I’m pretty firmly now of the belief that this guy isn’t a Philippine gun, but that just tells me what it isn’t, not what it is!

[Whig]

If interested in more information about the PC rifle, check out this post at KCA.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1548938927

[jon_norstog]

Whig I did check it out. I haven't seen anything from 5MF for a while so that was a good hit. I seem to remember something from the USMC "Small Wars Manual", 1940 edition, that advised the use of the bayonet in case of attack at close quarters by enemies using edged weapons. Maybe that was the logic behind the design of the PC rifle. The Krag carbine is a lot handier in the woods and was a lot handier in the jungle I'd guess. But an ambush attack by bolo-men, things would have been happening way faster than you could respond with fire from a bolt-action rifle. So the PC was a carbine=-length infantry weapon thaT could mount a bayonet.

5MF I know I can find that recommendation in the Small Wars Manual. Jus give me time!

jn

jn

[Bolomauser]

If interested in more information about the PC rifle, check out this post at KCA.

http://www.kragcollectorsassociation.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1548938927

Fantastic, thank you.

[Dick Hosmer]

I’d certainly be interested in his opinion. I’m pretty firmly now of the belief that this guy isn’t a Philippine gun, but that just tells me what it isn’t, not what it is!

Sorry, to be late for the party, but I do not believe that specimen to be official work, for all the reasons previously stated. As to the size issue - the native troops were a great deal shorter in stature than American soldiers and the 30" barrel was awkward for them, hence the conversions. It was then noted that such guns would also be well-suited to juveniles, hence the "school guns". The bayonet of choice was the M1905, which restored some of the "reach" when needed. This bayonet latches differently, thus GENUINE specimens of the arm will have a bevel on the bayonet lug

[butlersrangers]

The Philippine Constabulary opted to use Krag bayonets on their short rifles, rather than model 1905 Springfield Rifle bayonets. Once again, size and convenience dictated what was practical for this famed Police Force.

46717

[Story]

As good a thread as any.

Girard College had the first lot of 350 cadet rifles, IIRC.

Look close.

"Rear admiral W.T. Cluverius, commandant of the Philadelphia Navy Yard, reviews Girard College cadets as part of celebration of 188th anniversary of birth of Stephen Girard. May 21st 1938"
https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p15037coll3/id/4903

"Lieutenant William J. Heger of Company B looking over a rifle as the cadets line up for inspection." Undated.
https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p15037coll3/id/4891

"Accompanied by Major William Foster, U.S.M.C., three officers of the Women's Marine Corps Reserve look over Company D, which they adjudged the best of the four companies in the school's annual competitive drill. The young women are Captain Cathryn Fodermair (from left) and Lieutenants Betty W. Ballantine and Rosalie Herchert." June 10th, 1944.
https://digital.library.temple.edu/digital/collection/p15037coll3/id/4872

[Dick Hosmer]

That's REALLY cool, especially the second one. The rifle(s) couldn't be shown any clearer. Thanks for sharing.

[Kragrifle]

Great photos!

[butlersrangers]

'Story' - Very interesting Girard photos. Thank You for posting.

[kj47]

Really cool photos, thanks for posting.