6.5 Creedmoor brass observation.

[nf1e]

While priming 500 once fired 6.5 Creedmoor cases this morning, I found something interesting that other hand-loaders might appreciate. Using RCBS universal hand priming tool.

FC GMM brass had a cull rate of over 25% for loose primer pockets using 210M primers.

Hornady brass had a 0% cull rate using 210Ms

Lapua sp brass had a 0% failure with BR-4 primers

Starline sp brass had a 0% failure with BR-4 primers

https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/FC%20culls_zpsusjkwgks.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/FC%20culls_zpsusjkwgks.jpg.html)

[bruce]

Not surprised. Once upon a time I splurged on a nice batch of FGMM .308 brass. I loaded it with what was at that time my standard .308 Winchester load, a lost that by any respect was mild. Groups were excellent, as good as I'd gotten with R-P brass. But, after depriming and resizing the once fired case, about 1/3 of the cases were not useable due to primer pocket expansion. Only a very few were useable after the second reload. I pitched the brass. Don't know what was wrong, but I just figured I'd use R-P brass since it gave no such problems. Sincerely. bruce.

[nf1e]

Thanks Bruce. You have confirmed my suspicions.
Over the last number of decades I have shot a ton of Federal Gold Medal Match and then resized the cases and dumped them in a box. Never re-loaded any of it until recently.
The majority of my handloads for .308 have been Berdan primed brass which I never had any problems with.
Fast forward. I have been shooting 6.5 Creedmoor for a few years now and only loaded Hornady, Starline and Lapua. Well, bright boy thought, here is a few hundred nice shiny FC cases, why not load them. Just when you think you have it down , a surprise comes up on the scene.
I won't be saving any more of the FC single use brass.

[bruce]

Please understand that my experience is only my experience. I have used Federal brass from the old Hi Power series with complete success. The problem I had with the FGMM in .308 Winchester I thought was only a anomaly. Given that you have such a large quantity on hand, possibly might be worth contacting Federal w/ an inquiry. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[nf1e]

Dumped something over 5K in the recycling bucket. Nice to have room on the shelves for good brass.

https://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/nf1e/nf1e002/Brass_zpsgvmvjua4.jpg (https://s1180.photobucket.com/user/nf1e/media/nf1e002/Brass_zpsgvmvjua4.jpg.html)

[lyman]

When I was a Service Rifle shooter, Federal brass, even FGGM, was not usually kept,

some of us tighwads would load it once, the toss the brass in the range brass bucket, (and left on the range, the club recycled)


did you by chance check lengths on the cartridge,
I seem to recall some would need to be trimmed as well,


Federal brass is known to be soft

[nf1e]

When I was a Service Rifle shooter, Federal brass, even FGGM, was not usually kept,

some of us tighwads would load it once, the toss the brass in the range brass bucket, (and left on the range, the club recycled)


did you by chance check lengths on the cartridge,
I seem to recall some would need to be trimmed as well,


Federal brass is known to be soft

Yes, length was all over the place. I trim all my brass using a Giraud trimmer. After sizing and before getting dumped in the Thumler with ss and dawn for it's second cleaning, it get's run over the Giraud as a precaution.

[fguffey]

Years ago I purchased cases from an iron and metal salvage yard. In all appearance the cases looked new/unfired. I sorted the cases into groups of 20 and then started to load them; I thought they were magnificent cases. By the time I had fired some of the groups 3 times I came across a warning about cases that were recalled because there 'could' have been a problem with annealing. I did not need the cases so I moved them to the collectable case drawer. In my travels I have found a few hundred cases that have passed through reloaders hands that have fired multiple times with no serious after effects.

The first time I fired the cases I used maximum loads; before loading I measure the diameter of the case heads, primer pockets and flash hole diameters. If the case heads were soft the case heads would have expanded, the primer pockets would have increased in diameter and the flash holes would have increased in diameter also.

Again, I did not need the cases but I did stop using them. I had to consider there was something about annealing that did not effect all of these cases. And then there was a chance the problem with annealing did not effect/soften the case heads, instead there is a chance the problem caused the case heads to harden. Failure of a case head by hardening would be catamorphic. And then there was another problem I had to consider; there was a chance someone quoted the year stamped on the case head incorrectly. So, I moved two years of cases from that one arsenal.

And if I thought Federal cases were soft I would measure the diameter of the case heads and then load them with MAX loads, fire and measure again. That was then but in the age of the Internet, who knows?

F. Guffey

[BlitzKrieg]

Same cull rate for Federal brass ...308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Federal brass is purpose built not to be beneficial for reloaders.

[nf1e]

All makes total sense.

[fguffey]

Same cull rate for Federal brass ...308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Federal brass is purpose built not to be beneficial for reloaders.

I am the only member that has the luxury of disagreeing. I understand that is offensive, and then there are members that are sensitive and then there are all of those reloaders that woke up on day and became reloaders.

AGAIN: I purchased cases from a recycler; he did not understand the cases he purchased from an arsenal were deemed unsafe for use in a firearm. There was no way to determine if the problem was with one batch or all cases with a particular head stamp. I thought they were magnificent cases, I was on the third firing before I noticed a recall.


Federal brass is purpose built not to be beneficial for reloaders

And now we are back to reloaders that decided they would become reloaders. Does anyone measure before and again after?

I do not need new brass, the brass I have was not manufactured to benefit the first user only. Back to the cases I purchased from the recycler; it was determined the cases could have been detrimental to the first user.

F. Guffey

[lyman]

guffey,

you did not state what the changes were if any after firing

[BlitzKrieg]

Since I seek long range accuracy, I got on the slippery slope of weighing cases and bullets and culling both so I had the lease deviance in weight. I had weighed 100 of Federal cases and the variance in case weight was huge so I had to expand that effort to 500 cases so I could obtain boxes of brass that from lightest to heaviest case in a 50 rd box..no more than 1.9 grain difference. Then I weighed my Hornady brass and they were far more consistent in weight and lighter over all. In sum: Federal brass had larger case capacity than Hornady. Now mind you all my Fed and Hornady brass was from same lot of Fed or Hornady. Of course when doing so with Lapua brass...very consistent case weight.

So beyond primer pockets growing loose after 2nd reloading, I had to cull Fed brass by weight in order to get the best performance out of them, otherwise I'd get flyers all the time and that was because of pressure variances in Fed cases ...far far more so than Hornady cases.

I still weigh cases as its beneficial to accuracy with Hornady brass. I cease procuring Fed ammo to obtain brass to reload and as soon as my supply of Fed brass for 6.5Creedmoor is used up, I'll never use Fed brass for 6.8 Creedmoor again.

I buy my bullets in 1000 rd boxes, weight them out and cull by exact weight. Every box of hand loads has bullets of exact weight on those rounds and this really pulls in accuracy... at 1000 yds, it pays off. At 600 yds or below: waste of time.

Just what I am experiencing.

[JohnMOhio]

BlitzKrieg, since your doing the above listed procedures for 1,000 yard shooting, do you also check for run out on your loaded rounds. Thanks in advance. John M.

I have, some years back, was told that Federal has always been a softer brass and to be avoided. The inconstancy of the weight had to do with their formula for brass and the manufacturing process. It would also affect the volume that individual cartridge would have assuming the desired wall thickness they were trying to obtain in the body.

[BlitzKrieg]

John,

Yes, run out is not an issue be it Federal or Hornady brass. I use Forster Bench Rest Dies and Co Axl press. The only issue I flag is Federal brass craps out with loose primer pockets rapidly and case volume is hardly consistent. Hornady brass lasts longer, has better tolerances.

My loads are stout , I shoot 1000 yds only with my 6.5 Creedmoor and as all know, the higher charges loads excellerate primer pockets growing loose on any brand of brass. Fed brass grows loose very fast.

Often in these discussions we talk past each other. If you are shooting mid range loads , shooting 100 to 300 yds, just about any brass wlll do well and in 6.5 CM...you will have awesome accuracy. So if that fits your shooting then you and I are solar systems away in experiences. Once you cross 600 yd line and move farther in distance, you need max FPS and will shortly see loose primer pockets happening. Rate of this is significantly higher with Fed Brass in my experience.

Fed 6.5 CM ammo is the cheapest found so many buy it with idea they gain great brass and feel compelled to defend its quality....as said if you are a short range shooter you can defend Fed brass serves you well, if you are a long range shooter, you will find out what I posted is valid.

I got over 1000 each 1x fired Fed brass and 700 1x fired Hornady brass for 6.5 CM. I got no skin in the game slamming Fed Brass as I own a lot of it. I wish Fed Brass was as good as Hornady for my purposes.

[BlitzKrieg]

Oh yes, forgot to mention 308 Federal Brass. Shortest case life of any 308 brass I own
and that holds true if shot in my M1A or my Tikka 308 long range bolt rifle. Sadly, before
I knew about Fed brass primer pockets loosening so fast, I bought a ton of Fed brass and
it was a deal too good to be true and now I own a lot of it.

I use it only for M1A with 2 reloads and toss the Fed brass. If you pulse around you will find
4x is the most often reloading life of 308 brass in a M1A. I am glad to get 2x use out of my
Fed 308 1x fired brass. and for the record, I only shoot that M1A at 800 and 1000 yds and
any brand of brass has loose primer pockets before 4th reloading. My load for 308 is the military
Mk 316 Mod "O" which you can look up on internet but it is a 175 SMK pushed by 41.745 gr of
IMR 4064. That is the military developed load and its lights out accurate in all my 308's at
800/1000 yds. Now...does 42gr work ...? I am told it does but 41.745 gr is the military load
and that is precisely what I weigh with my Sartorius scale which can weigh 41.745 grains precisely.

[JohnMOhio]

Thanks BK. That pretty much gives me a early warning. I have been toying with the idea of getting into this long range shooting. Thinking about obtaining a rifle for it and was looking at the 6.5 CM and also this new 300PRC. As this will most likely be the last rifle purchase, ( I am 78 years old) it is difficult to make up my mind as I have not come across anyone currently shooting the 300PRC to get their take on it. Besides the larger case capacity and bullet size, is there really an advantage of one over the other in performance. How about you? Can you give me info on the 300PRC?

I sure would like to see that scale you have. That has peeked my interest as I have not heard of that brand.

Couldn't wait for you to possibly post a photo. Looked for the scale on the internet. I can see why it is not a product commonly found on some of the retailers shelfs such as Midway. Appears to be in a class all by itself. Maybe Santa will be good to this old man next year.

[JohnMOhio]

BK, what you wrote about brass life in the M1A I have heard numerous times and several times in print. It seems to be in the nature of the beast I suppose. As a teenager I had my sights set on getting a M1A but somewhere along the paths I had chosen I got hooked on the 1903 and 1903A3 and then jumped the the Garand. Don't regret the path I took. Now the path seems to point me to long range shooting. Did a great deal of it in New Mexico when I was in the service shooting Jack Rabbits on weekends during the summer. It was fun times then.

[fguffey]

So beyond primer pockets growing loose after 2nd reloading, I had to cull Fed brass by weight in order to get the best performance out of them, otherwise I'd get flyers all the time and that was because of pressure variances in Fed cases ...far far more so than Hornady cases.

Many years ago I purchased cases from Pat's in Ohio, the price was from 7¢ to 11¢ each. The cases were pull down 30/06 LC match. I purchased at least 4,000 unfired cases. At the same time I purchased cases for 1¢ each because no one wanted to spend days tumbling to clean. After all that effort I did not fire a case that was not formed from a 30/06 case. I never looked for a case that had an exemption on maximum loads but there was a reloader that claimed he fired cases 43 times with maximum loads with out the case showing any effects. What a waste of time; he did not/list the manufacturer of the case☺?

Back to shooting cases formed from 30/06 cases; Once the forming die is paid for cases cost me 11¢ each. If I owned one forming die it would be the 308W die, if I owned 2 forming dies the second would be a 243W forming die, I own 16 forming dies, there are a few I can not do without.

A friend/smith built bench rester rifles, one was a 308 W/7.62; one of his customers was not happy so the builder called me for an explanation. First I asked the builder about accuracy, the accuracy could not be improved upon. I found the proud owner was not happy with the fired cases, he was complaining about loose necks. My old friend and I dug through thousands of cases for matching case heads. I settled on 30/06 LC MATCH, I formed the cases to 308W but did not ream the neck or reduce the outside diameter of the case neck. Accuracy did not improve but the proud owner was happy.

F. Guffey

[BlitzKrieg]

The problem with the very highest grade of scales is you find it painfully tedious getting each load exact.
To the point of using tweezers to get exact ...really atomically exact weight charges. I'd say its as enjoyable
a reloading experience as pulling single hairs out of your nose.

Now does precise powder charges contribute to long range accuracy: Yes. For precision shooting at long range it does pay off , as does using best components in your hand loads.

Its a slippery slope this handloading for precision and accuracy...finite accuracy. The bench rest shooters know it takes a ton of time. Here is where I draw the line : I will not turn necks, I will not point bullets or re cut ogives, I will not weigh primers, I will not uniform primer pockets, I will not buy Berger or Lapua bullets nor use Lapua brass. Those procedures listed are more pain and I don't need to consider them because my rifle and I are as accurate as we are, others who are far younger might benefit from those procedures but I won't see the difference in accuracy. As to Berger and Lapua: I can't shoot those components better than I can shoot Hornady , Sierra and Nosler bullets seated in Hornady brass. So, I prefer to take the "production grade" bullets and be satisfied with results.

Berger / Lapua people: I see then on the 1000 yd line about every 6 weeks. I am on the 1000 yd line every weekend. I'd say I shoot 9 x the number of shots than they do and I am good with .8 MOA accuracy vs .5 MOA accuracy that the Berger / Lapua components can bring it. The difference to me is immaterial but make no mistake, Berger / Lapua make bullets that fly better, Lapua brass is primo stuff.

I shoot a lot , I shoot cheaper than Berger / Lapua people. I am good with how things are and I am not adding any more steps to get better hand load performance. One of the seriously credible long range shooters once told me " There are 12 steps to bench rest accuracy hand loading, 2 are BS and we don't know which 2 that is". This from a guy that took 8 hours to make 100 rds of NASA grade long range loads that were blazing accurate.

Well...others are great and I am half good but I'm good with how things sorted out on accuracy.

[fguffey]

lyman


guffey,

you did not state what the changes were if any after firing

I thought the cases were magnificent in appearance, I was on the third round of shooting before I was told the cases had a recall notice. The recall notice was for the complete year.

I did not need the cases so I moved the cases to the collectable drawer. After that I included the cases from the next year just in case they missed something. They did not want to miss any mistakes so they recalled the complete year.

I have been asked to clean out shops that belonged to friends that knew they did not have long to live. One of them had a good supply of the recalled cases, I added them to my collectable drawer. Again, the cases were magnificent looking cases after they were run through a tumbler.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

you did not state what the changes were if any after firing

I assume reloaders understand when cases are annealed the outcome is predictable. My cases did expand when fired; I should not have to explain to a reloader when the case head does not expand when fired the case head is not soft.

When the annealing process leaves the case heads too hard the chances of case head failure increases. I want my case heads to expand; the one thing I can not get a reloader to agree with is 'by how much'. If my cases heads expand I know they are not brittle/too hard. (back to how much?)

Ever time the subject comes up reloaders want to tell me every thing they know about reloading.

And that reminds me of Marcus Fabian Quintillion; his students called him 'the Mighty Quin'. He would have been an outstanding INTERNET reloader.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Marcus Fabian Quintillion

One of the first paid teachers by the Romans. And for those that wonder Marcus was Greek.

I give Marcus credit for the Greek joke; ISO,ISO and "I am Thor!".

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Marcus was ahead of his time by 2000 years +. He was a teacher of rhetoric. He would have been one of the greatest reloaders the world has ever know. A teacher of rhetoric did not have to know anything about what he was teaching, his job was to convince others he did.

F. Guffey