USMC Springfields

[gunn308]

This forum was recomended to me by the people on US Militaria forum.

Title:
1903 Springfields

Description:
2-1903 Springfields USMC 1-serial# 476525 SA barrel date7-11 with grooved trigger 1-serial# 638092 SA barrel date 2-17 with smooth trigger note- serial# could be 658092 it is under scope base, scope is J. STEVENS scope base is stamped FZB even have stamp that was used looks hand made 1- model 1875 USMC officers sabre with ivory bolsters, blade engraved all items in wooden case w/USMC brass padlock ,case is marked outside; F.Z. BECKER Captain USMC inside; QMSGT Jordan Oct. 27, 18

Condition:
rifles & sabre all original in excellent condition case has normal wear

Origin:
I inherited these from my great uncle Capt. Frank Z. Becker whom I am told was a range officer , and I am told he shot competitively for the Marine Corps I am also told that these rifles may have been presented to him by the Springfield Armory and used in competition this I can't verify.



Both barrels are marked SA then the BOMB then the date and there is an H on the bayonet stud. Both have checkered butt plates with doors for cleaning kits.
The scoped one has stamped in the stock behind the trigger guard, 1/8"tall numbers, the # 76, inside the stock the # 88, and inside the magazine it looks like the # 7 not sure about that one. With the stock removed the barrel is marked pJ50, the receiver is marked KCX and 78 6 and the barrel next to receiver has what looks like a backwards 3. The bolt has the # 2 stamped on it & the bolt lug has the # 15. The rear sight has a HESSIAN nickel sight cover, the scope is J. STEVENS ARMS & TOOL Co. CHICOPEE FALLS. MASS. U.S.A. Pat Pndg No. but there is no number , the only # on the scope is 8 and that is on the top front. Scope is 15 5/16" X 3/4". Got a 12 pt 225 lb white tail with it when I was 14 then found out from Bill Morrison that the first 800,000 weren't safe to shoot.
The unscoped one has 90 behind the trigger guard& the bolt relief has the letter E stamped in it & the magazine is marked 5p there again it is hard to tell. Inside the handguard the barrel is stamped 15R & next to the receiver is B25, the receiver is marked in various spots with 3, A, V, U, 1 & C with a tail like Q . 469674696846969

[bruce]

Rare and wonderful! Will follow this post with interest. Sincerely. bruce.

[gunn308]

Any info would be apreciated. 4697046971469724697346974

[gunn308]

469754697646977

[gunn308]

46990469914699246993

[bruce]

You might want to also consider posting these pictures and your questions at the CMP forum. Sincerely. bruce.

[cplnorton]

We talked several years back when you posted these on the US Military forum.

The mounts that are on the Steven's scope are unique. I've never seen another set that look like this. The closest I have seen to this appear in the Army documents from 1923, but they are not exact either. They are different that the standard USMC Mann Niedner mounts that you see in the Marine Corps photos of this time.

The Mann style taper blocks on you rifle also seem shorter than the USMC style. But I would really need clearer pics to be able to tell the spacing and block style.

The blocks are missing one trait that I can see clearly in the pics that I see on the USMC Mann Nienders made in WWI, but I really need better pics to tell much more.

Now the Army was experimenting with the Mann Style taper blocks at this time. So the story you were told that SA gave him this rifle to trial. That is totally feasible. Mann Style taper blocks were not exclusive to the Marines at all.

It is also very common back then that when trialing new telescopic equipped rifle designs they would give them to distinguished rifle marksmans to trial.

So the story of SA giving this rifle to a Marine shooter of his caliber, is VERY highly plausible.

I really need more pics to tell more, but what I seen of your rifle so far it is a one off. The other one, I have Marine team rifle serials in that range that pre date WWI.

These are amazing rifles and I am very envious of them. I have substantial amount of Marine team rifle records and and Army sniper records of this time, so these are extremely fascinating to me and have been for years. :)

[cplnorton]

For instance, this is a WWII Mann Niender USMC Sniper. The Marines built at least a 150 of these during WWII using parts leftover from the WWI A5 sniper program and the taper blocks they built at the Philly Depot.

These are the traditional blocks you see in the WWI pics and also on the existing WWI examples that I have no doubt that are real.

For instance on the rear block it takes up the whole length of the receiver. On yours I think it's shorter. It doesn't take up the whole length and the spacing I'm curious is even the same for the screws.

https://i.imgur.com/bArbAn9h.jpg



As I said your mount style is not the same as you see in the WWI USMC Mann Niedner conversion that is traditional. I can document this style also in WWI pics in France and in Sniper school in 1919 at Quantico. The Marines took a WRA #2 mount and cut the dovetail base, changed the micrometers to a better design with pointer, and then got rid of the grasshopper spring and added an internal plunger.

https://i.imgur.com/kp7zghlh.jpg


Your's is not a #2 WRA mount converted. You can even see on the side of the WRA it is split to be able to tighten. Your's doesn't even have that split, let alone the micrometers and base are different.

https://i.imgur.com/KnPDN5Ah.jpg

I almost wonder if your mount isn't a Steven's that has been converted. But I don't know Steven's well enough to say for sure. I've never studied a Steven's mount. Though I know Steven's heavily copied the A5 design and made a cheaper version than WRA.

The Mariens for sure did one off's though. This is from 1923. This was a Marine team rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/g4SQMfCh.jpg


Personally I think there are 4 likely scenarios for your rifle.

1) Niedner did a handful of M1903's for the Marine rifle team in 1916. These were done for the rifle team and he did use a taper mount design.

2) Niedner converted a 150 Marine Corps rifles in 1917. But there is nothing for certain what these rifle exactly looked like. The ones that the Marine did themselves post the summer of 1918, I think I know conclusively what those look like between the new pics I have found, and the couple existing examples that I can document to the time frame. Whether these ones done by the Marines at the Depot are identical to the 150 done by Niedner, it's anyone's guess. My best guess is, they are not. But I doubt there is anyway to ever know for certain.

3) Your rifle is one of the trial rifles done with the taper blocks that the Army details post WWI. The Army was experimenting with the Taper blocks.

4) Your rifle blocks and mount were done by another commercial gunsmith. The taper block design by Mann was very, very popular at this time and the patent did not preclude others from using it. So there were several commercial gunsmiths that did indeed submit compies of telescopic rifles to the branches to try to get the design approved and get a govt contract. It could easily be one of those as well.

I would certainly love to see more pics of that telescopic equipped rifle, especially the blocks and mount. I just have thousands of pages of docs from this time from the Army and MArines on these telescopic equipped rifles and I find them very, very interesting.

[gunn308]

I'll get more/better pics tonight. The rear mount is smaller than the forward mount and center - center is about 7 3/8"

- - - Updated - - -

Brophy shows one pic in the optics chapter with a Stevens scope.

[cplnorton]

Stevens was trying to get a scope contract with the Army and the Marines. For instance they submitted their first scope directly to the Marine Corps in 1911. Little was written about it.

I know I have them also submitting several scopes to the Army. I think it was two different times. I forget the time frame but it was pre WWI. I want to say like 1912 and 1914. I can't remember. I didn't go back and pull the contracts. But one of those rifles is actually still in the Springfield Museum. That rifle might be pictured in Brophy. If it's not pictured in there, I have pics of the rifle taken back then. I never remember what Brophy has in his book.

It was a different scope than this one though.

Now the 150 rifles converted by Niedner in 1917. We really don't know for sure what scope he used. I've found mentions Stevens did have a contract with the Marines, but Stevens was also producing a lot more than scopes, so that is a possibility.

For the 150 to Niedner, WRA did not sell them the A5 scopes directly. WRA did sell over 500 to the Navy around that time, but it's unsure if this is where the Marines got their 150 for Niedner to convert, or possibly he could have converted another type of scope. Such as the Stevens. I wouldn't rule it out. Maybe that is the mention on why I found Stevens had a contract with the Marines. But just no way to know since those docs don't seem to exist anymore.

Those 150 by Niender we have a lot of questions over, because very little documentation exists. The Marines had a document purge around 1920 and a lot were destroyed.

If anyone tells you they know very much about those 150 by Niedner, other than Niedner converted 150, they are feeding you a line.

Those 150 by Niender are a complete mystery.


Is there any where on your stock the full serial number is stamped? Maybe on the right side around the bolt handle?

[free1954]

GUNN308 nice piece of history you have there.
CPLNORTON nice piece on history you posted.

[gunn308]

https://i.postimg.cc/dZVHTSPt/0-BBE5-A20-8-C9-F-46-A0-8790-7-B16-E5-FE6-FCB.jpg (https://postimg.cc/dZVHTSPt) https://i.postimg.cc/Vr1HzkKt/1-EA5-FA0-B-AF02-4-C07-B820-FCF051664-C90.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Vr1HzkKt) https://i.postimg.cc/942B7Ny5/356-AEB33-355-B-4-AD7-96-A5-AD0-BD19-B2-E19.jpg (https://postimg.cc/942B7Ny5) https://i.postimg.cc/qzYbzLm4/38055723-CB38-431-E-88-CB-A504-C8725-E05.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qzYbzLm4) https://i.postimg.cc/s1j081Qd/5-E441287-1311-43-A9-976-A-0049131-F3111.jpg (https://postimg.cc/s1j081Qd) https://i.postimg.cc/1n9MLYzc/667-C09-BF-26-DE-4-C52-9203-507-A52329-D8-A.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1n9MLYzc) https://i.postimg.cc/GHBzwDbN/6-C67510-C-42-ED-4-EF5-8-F35-D8067-A9292-B7.jpg (https://postimg.cc/GHBzwDbN) https://i.postimg.cc/McJ9YG2L/7-B614527-096-B-4-B6-A-AF56-9-FB011698-E9-A.jpg (https://postimg.cc/McJ9YG2L) https://i.postimg.cc/143JBT2y/7-F020-F92-E67-E-40-A8-ABF7-2-FE57410-C0-E0.jpg (https://postimg.cc/143JBT2y) https://i.postimg.cc/v1vtLLv1/7-F7-AC917-ED07-4-AF7-B247-CC394-F945-C67.jpg (https://postimg.cc/v1vtLLv1) https://i.postimg.cc/34BfNQqc/85-E388-AA-73-C8-4-DB9-81-B5-286-B24-E48-D37.jpg (https://postimg.cc/34BfNQqc) https://i.postimg.cc/ZBKFfBfw/BD94-A5-AC-9-C10-4338-AE56-F41258-B8-DA6-D.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ZBKFfBfw) https://i.postimg.cc/zV32zMFx/D8-A1-F739-A57-C-4717-8485-4-E8661-D1325-A.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zV32zMFx) https://i.postimg.cc/9w0bfRZD/DC1-ECA89-0-F4-D-44-F5-B160-C377-F6-E09-D17.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9w0bfRZD) https://i.postimg.cc/XZKQ10nY/E430331-D-5-BC0-4-A97-AA07-DDAE1791-BB70.jpg (https://postimg.cc/XZKQ10nY) https://i.postimg.cc/gxZMRZ5R/E6-FCA717-17-FC-4-E13-8-B4-B-3-BAF1-DCF356-D.jpg (https://postimg.cc/gxZMRZ5R) https://i.postimg.cc/0rVHqxD6/F1252-A9-B-E08-B-44-AD-90-A2-CF2014244-AB1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/0rVHqxD6) https://i.postimg.cc/r0QgcC06/F20-A43-B8-0-C96-4987-A574-7-B87-BBE7-C777.jpg (https://postimg.cc/r0QgcC06) https://i.postimg.cc/PCY4NkpQ/FC2-C7-F10-7-E48-40-B2-9-D0-B-2-BECC6-EDBC8-B.jpg (https://postimg.cc/PCY4NkpQ)CPLNORTON Hope these help sorry it took so long Jerry

[cplnorton]

Gun308, I cannot tell you how absolutely fascinating this rifle is to me. I've stared at this pics for probably 30 minutes already. lol

It's definitively built like the way the Marine Corps built their Mann Niender Snipers, but everything is on a smaller scale. I'm actually very interested in the spacing of the blocks and the length.

I need to get one of my original snipers out of a safe and do some comparisons between that rifle and this, and see if there is a correlation. I also need to pull out the drawings of the Army Mann Niedner blocks and do some comparisons as well.

After you have studied real rifles and then I have a lot of pics that are unpublished, you see the way the Marines Corps armorers did modifications. I can see some certain mods in this that for sure look like the Marine Corps had their hands into this rifle, but then I see other traits that were left out. Which is just absolutely fascination to me.

It's almost like a hybrid in some ways. I think that is the easiest term in the way I would describe it.

But let me get a rifle out later today when I have more time and do some comparisons in measurements. I'm really glad you put the tape measure in those pics. That helps immensely.

I am immensely jealous of this rifle. It's very fascinating! :)

I will report back.

[cplnorton]

I've looked at a bunch of stuff trying to pinpoint this and it's just as I said earlier, a hybrid of some sorts.

I really don't know exactly what this one is. I will definitely keep a look out going forward. I'm hoping to find some pics that would show this style and figure it out.

It's really, really interesting and what an Heirloom. I would love to own this set myself!

Thank you so much for sharing. If I find anything new I will definitely come back and update this.

[shadycon]

When I tried to have a look at pics my pc went nuts! Be careful!

[03collector]

Hello cplnorton - I was hoping to send you a private message in regards to this thread, but apparently your inbox is full and can't receive any more messages. Are you still around?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Maj. Becker was a SSS instructor at Deer Point. As such, he would have been given one of the earliest issued SSS rifles (April of 1918). Some of the original instructors were issued rifles from the 150 lot Niedner did, but not all of them. One instructor changed rifles at least three times during his tenure. It would not be unusual that Maj. Becker kept his rifle after the war due to his close association with the Marine Corps rifle team, as the shooters could have just about any rifle and scope they desired. He may have purchased them at his own expense. I thought I sent you the documentation for Maj. Becker a year or so ago. The scope may have been changed many times.

[cplnorton]

Hello cplnorton - I was hoping to send you a private message in regards to this thread, but apparently your inbox is full and can't receive any more messages. Are you still around?

I don't come over to this forum a lot because it seems to be about dead. But you can write me here or email too at cplnorton2@yahoo.com. I cleared out my inbox.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Hope these help sorry it took so long Jerry

A bit more light would sure help when viewing your pictures.

By now you must know you own a very rare, and very valuable, set of armaments. At auction, they would garner enough cash to buy a new Mercedes. You do realize you can follow Maj. Becker's entire Marine career through the Muster Rolls on Ancestry.com? There is no mystery as to who he was. The scoped rifle is invaluable. Since Maj. Becker was a lifer and a paper puncher, it has probably undergone numerous changes, modifications, and adjustments; which was not unusual at all for paper punchers. It appears to have its original barrel. It is a shame he did not retain the original A5 scope and Penquin scope case issued to him with the rifle. You own a verifiable WWI Marine sniper rifle that can be traced. Get a copy of his service records, cost is $60. You will see he was issued that rifle in early 1918 at GITMO. You don't need any BS speculation from any of us, as you will have the complete paper trial. Do it.

Maj. Becker wasn't any run of the mill Marine. He was a player. Only the best shots in the Marines held the stations he did. He was picked by Maj. Fay to be a sniper school instructor at GITMO, the first Marine sniper school. He later went to OSD as a sniper school instructor when OSD opened its doors to trainees. He went Distinguished (rifle) in 1920, which puts him in the same league as shooters like Hathcock and McIlhanney. The fact that he was the owner of these rifles adds significant value to them.

Good luck. I would like to see a closeup of the shrouded serial number if you can get the lighting under control. Just remember - those rifles will only appreciate in value.

[lyman]

here is a very good tutorial on taking photo's of firearma (or just about anything)


https://www.gunboards.com/threads/picture-taking-101-ask-questions-look-for-advice-on-technique-camera-etc.379584/#post-3157849