View Full Version : The M1903 as a Close Combat Weapon
No bayonet :evil6:
I was going to put this on the '03 forum but figured it would get more play here. This fellow is not recommending you give up your AR but the results are interesting. I will say that police rifle and shotgun courses tend to be less challenging than pistol courses. In my experience and qualifying with rifles is almost always inside 100 yards, in this case inside 50 yards.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoV6ZF11-5w
Works well. Learning to work the bolt hard and fast is the most important skill. Can't baby the thing. Palm the bolt knob. Don't use the fingers. Sincerely. bruce.
Thanks for posting, Art.
As a professional southpaw I recommend that part-timers work the bolt with their left hand. Yes it's a reach-over move but you don't booger up your hand that way.
Thanks for posting, Art.
As a professional southpaw I recommend that part-timers work the bolt with their left hand. Yes it's a reach-over move but you don't booger up your hand that way.
...actually the way the Brit army taught lefties who just couldn't master the rifle right handed; cant the rifle to the left, reach over the action and grasp the bolt handle, pull back to extract and eject, feed the new round and then straighten the rifle. This can be done very rapidly, not quite as fast as right handed but pretty darn quick...as you know. The big fly in the ointment with this method for an Enfield is the comparatively weak ejection.
On the reload drill, if he'd gotten all five off he would have been a super star. 5 shots in 12 seconds with a reload is the equivalent of 20+ rounds a minute sustained! Not hard with an SMLE if you've practiced some, but only a master of the '03 could pull that off. Four shots was the equivalent of 16+ aimed rounds per minute which is not bad at all with a Springfield.
Former Cav
04-11-2020, 01:52
but only a master of the '03 could pull that off. Four shots was the equivalent of 16+ aimed rounds per minute which is not bad at all with a Springfield.
huh?? I've seen some old guys at NRA rifle matches in the sitting and prone rapid fire phases get there 10 rounds off with time to spare. And they were all in the 10 and X !!
huh?? I've seen some old guys at NRA rifle matches in the sitting and prone rapid fire phases get there 10 rounds off with time to spare. And they were all in the 10 and X !!
The Jim Owens remark about a scared bolt gunner comes to mind.
Cosine26
04-11-2020, 02:04
I competed as a high Power bolt rifle shooter for many years. (I am a lifetime Master) It was quite common for a bolt rifle shooter to fire his first clip, look into his scope, make a wind adjustment and finish well before the 60 of 70 seconds expire for 200 and 300 yard RF strings.
I competed as a high Power bolt rifle shooter for many years. (I am a lifetime Master) It was quite common for a bolt rifle shooter to fire his first clip, look into his scope, make a wind adjustment and finish well before the 60 of 70 seconds expire for 200 and 300 yard RF strings.
Cosine and Former Cav. That was exactly what I said. I didn't say it can't be done but there are a lot of good shots who can't do it. You have to be extremely good with an '03 to do what you two are talking about; which means you are exactly the type of person I was referring to. I'm good with a bolt gun but I can't do what you can and frankly, even if I spent the time you do on it I would probably never reach your level because I don't have the genetic gifts when it comes to vision and fine motor skills. I've seen people who were good with a gun from the jump. It's called talent. Lucky them. I was not one of those.
When I was a somewhat mediocre runner in college I thought that anyone who couldn't run four miles under 24 minutes was a slacker or lacking in competitive spirit because I could do it under 22 minutes, under 21 minutes on a really good day. I later realized I had been unfair. Some people no matter how hard they work, how scientific their training, or how good their attitude were never going to run under 24 minutes ever.
If it was easy everybody would do it. If just training and practice could accomplish it there would be a lot more Master shooters. Can I equal what this old boy can do with an '03 (16 shots on a silhouette in one minute, probably. Can I put 20 shots on a silhouette with an SMLE at 200 yards in one minute, yep on a good day if I don't blow a reload. Can I do what you can? No. Can everybody learn to do what you can? Absolutely not.
You can't put in what God's left out.
Art: Sub 5:15 for 4 miles is a nice clip. I was in similar territory. Good to have made use of youth while it was there, yes?
Art: Sub 5:15 for 4 miles is a nice clip. I was in similar territory. Good to have made use of youth while it was there, yes?
Yep. I ran against the big boys though. In my three SEC meets I never finished better than 10th...from last. The top five places in my last one in 1971, ran under 19 minutes, the top three well under 19 minutes. You run about 18:35-40 for 4 miles you can motor. Of course some of those boys would later run in the Olympics.
After my final season at LSU my coach told me "If you just had a couple more steps you could have been a great one."
Those were good times.
One of the bad things about getting old is you don't forget being young.
Tip of my hat to you for running with the big boys.
My senior year of HS, turning in some good 1 mile times. An alum of the track/CC program graduated from Northwestern, back home now, drops by to visit his old coach. He had finished 7th 2 years in a row in the Steeplechase at the Big Ten Outdoor meet. Big boys. He passed along some of what he knew to me and another guy, got us into the state HS meet and doing well. One of those debts I cannot pay back, only forward.
My guess for you is you still have some gas in the tank, that it doesn't all go away with the years.
Back to the M1903. Being a lefty I can hit things with it, but follow up shots quickly are not in the cards for me. Too much loss of target. Still my favorite rifle to own and shoot though.
Correcting a possible misunderstanding, When I spoke of mastering the M1903 I was talking about mastering it as a combat rifle, not as a match rifle which is much more difficult. I checked out the course of qualification (Army) for the M1903 rifle and it had two timings of rapid fire. The first was from a fixed position 15 shots in one minute. The other was 10 shots in one minute after a 25 yard run. Being able to fire 16 or 17 shots in a minute in that system gives you more time to shoot 15 9or 10.)
I notice the You Tube article on the M1903 gives the rate of fire as 10 - 15 shots a minute and I assume they got that from one of the military courses of fire but I could be wrong....it's certainly happened before.
Cosine and Former Cav. That was exactly what I said. I didn't say it can't be done but there are a lot of good shots who can't do it. You have to be extremely good with an '03 to do what you two are talking about; which means you are exactly the type of person I was referring to. I'm good with a bolt gun but I can't do what you can and frankly, even if I spent the time you do on it I would probably never reach your level because I don't have the genetic gifts when it comes to vision and fine motor skills. I've seen people who were good with a gun from the jump. It's called talent. Lucky them. I was not one of those.
When I was a somewhat mediocre runner in college I thought that anyone who couldn't run four miles under 24 minutes was a slacker or lacking in competitive spirit because I could do it under 22 minutes, under 21 minutes on a really good day. I later realized I had been unfair. Some people no matter how hard they work, how scientific their training, or how good their attitude were never going to run under 24 minutes ever.
If it was easy everybody would do it. If just training and practice could accomplish it there would be a lot more Master shooters. Can I equal what this old boy can do with an '03 (16 shots on a silhouette in one minute, probably. Can I put 20 shots on a silhouette with an SMLE at 200 yards in one minute, yep on a good day if I don't blow a reload. Can I do what you can? No. Can everybody learn to do what you can? Absolutely not.
You can't put in what God's left out.
what Cosine did not mention is that you start from a standing position,
so, drop to sitting or prone,
pop of 5 aimed shots (shoot, work bolt, take a breath, reacquire target, shoot) x's 5, then as mentioned check scope etc and repeat,
60 seconds sitting,
70 seconds prone time limits,
may have changed a bit, I think you are allowed to start in position now, (been 15yrs since I shot a 1903 in matches,
and I was a lowly expert,
Great video, Art. Thanks for posting.
jjrothWA
04-13-2020, 06:11
I shot at a club outside CLeveland, and the bolt-gunners were able tofire their first five, by the time i has my 8-round clip loaded in my M1, slip thier clip and chrge the magazine by my fifth round and complete their last five by the time my clip ejected!
WHen shooting my 17 Enfield, I would swing my lower arm up is a arc and catch the bolt knob between the thumb and index finger and bring in back to eject and rotated the bolt forward with the base of the thumb and lock the bolt then sight and fire. Ended up with five to four seconds before targets withdrew. It takes practise.
Cosine26
04-13-2020, 09:48
My last competition M1903
https://imgur.com/GvFrzFC
I could go through the procedures that I used but I doubt that anyone is still using M1903' competitively so it would be pointless. This is not a standard M1903 but has many upgrades. I have used it out to and including 1000 yards. I later switched to M70 (30-06 & 7.62), Remington M722 (7.62), Remington 30 S (30-06 and 300 H&H )
FWIW
Vern Humphrey
04-14-2020, 07:30
Mike Venturino wrote an article about running the course at Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch with a '73 Winchester in .38-40. He simply filled the cargo pockets of his shorts with ammo, and at every lull would stuff a few rounds into the magazine. He smoked the guys with AR 15s.
My last competition M1903
https://imgur.com/GvFrzFC
I could go through the procedures that I used but I doubt that anyone is still using M1903' competitively so it would be pointless. This is not a standard M1903 but has many upgrades. I have used it out to and including 1000 yards. I later switched to M70 (30-06 & 7.62), Remington M722 (7.62), Remington 30 S (30-06 and 300 H&H )
FWIW
nice rifle,
when I competed a gent would drive up from Lynchburg (RIP) and shoot with us at RRPC,
he had a very similar rifle, and did very well with it
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