Interesting old Western Ammo Box

[Craig from kazoo]

Back when corrosive primers were a selling point. Be fun to shoot a box or two!

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47654&d=1588211122

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47653&d=1588211122

[fguffey]

WCC, and then it became WW as in Winchester Western. Winchester fell on hard times in 1929.

And for match accuracy they used mercuric/corrosive primers.

F. Guffey

[Johnny P]

That may have been overrun from Western military contract match ammo (white box) which used mercuric priming.

[Parashooter]

Here's the published story -

47656

[Craig from kazoo]

Here are the contents of the box. Reloaded who knows how long ago and some are color coded.

http://www.jouster2.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47661&d=1588352677

[fguffey]

And for match accuracy they used mercuric/corrosive primers.

The head stamps indicate the box contains Winchester/Western, Saint Louis, Remington etc. cases. The primers indicate all cases have been fired because the primers have been replaced. And then there is the infinity mercury has for brass. In the old days it was believed the case became brittle because of the mercury when fired. That was before the Internet; now? I am sure some reloader can tell a convincing story about how wrong the old folks were.

I have nothing to gain by firing brass that is suspect and then I find nothing entertaining about firing a case could be brittle. I did set up a test for checking cases that could benefit from being annealed; that was before ever reloader became an expert.

F. Guffey

[Craig from kazoo]

Friend's father passed and he offered a coffee can of assorted ammunition.

I accepted this and a box of modern .30 carbine, turned down the rest as I've spent my time decommissioning others ammo in the past.

One day this will be broken down, WD40'ied and into the garbage as I've got more brass than I'll ever wear out.

Thanks for your replies,

Craig

[fguffey]

Craig, I sometimes wonder why some members do not wonder, I did; I wondered if mercury turns brass brittle when fired how did they reload in the 'good old days'?

It is as though we are the only ones that know anything, but be don't.

F. Giffey

[JOHN COOK]

Fred, looks like you are slipping a little, In your above post you can’t spell your last name...

John in sc

[fguffey]

Fred, looks like you are slipping a little, In your above post you can’t spell your last name...

John in sc

John, and I wandered; if I slipped, by how far?. And then I checked the keyboard. The u key comes before the I key.

F. Guffey

And if I ever find out who Fred is I will tell him he is doing a good job' especially if his fingers are as old as my fingers.

[fguffey]

In the old days there was no such thing as 'sorta' 'kind-a', when it came to firing mercuric primers the case was brittle as soon as the trigger was pulled. SO? If the reloader was going to use mercuric primers and wanted good mileage out of his cases he would galvanize the inside of the case.

And if anyone wondered about what happened to the barrel when mercuric primers were used? The barrel started rusting as soon as the atmosphere contacted the inside of the barrel so it was not easy to clean the barrel fast enough. And I have some stuff that removes cupronickel, the streaker bullet; anyhow, read the instructions before poring down the barre.

F. Guffey

[JOHN COOK]

You just sound like a Fred..:1948:

John in sc

[fguffey]

And then there was a more civil exchange between Jack O'Conner and his readers. In one of his reloading books written in 1954 he cautioned reloaders about corrosive primers. Most had no clue because at the time if it was military it was corrosive. In the same book he mentioned he used lanolin when lubing cases. He was not trying to sell reloaders on lanolin, he did not strut around trying to convince anyone he invented it. He said his hands were in pain all the time, he claimed his hands were dried and cracked. It was about that time he said the only relief he got from the cracked skin and pain was when he used lanolin.

He said when he was sizing cases he added more lanolin for case lube. Today everyone believes they discovered it; with one exception.

F. Guffey

[togor]

German military primers were primary mercuric through WW2. While the Berdan primed brass is generally not reused, it isn't unheard-of. Moreover 8mm ammo from that era is still around and still shot (I do myself) and cleaning isn't an issue. Captured German weapons from that era show a range of bore conditions, as one would expect in a chaotic battlefield aftermath.

[fguffey]

German military primers were primary mercuric through WW2. While the Berdan primed brass is generally not reused, it isn't unheard-of. Moreover 8mm ammo from that era is still around and still shot (I do myself) and cleaning isn't an issue. Captured German weapons from that era show a range of bore conditions, as one would expect in a chaotic battlefield aftermath.


Moreover 8mm ammo from that era is still around and still shot

'What I have learned from the 'old' 8mm57 ammo I have shot': I pulled the trigger, the firing pin struck the primer and smoke filled the air and then there was that whistling sound. I chambered a round, pulled the trigger and then nothing; I waited for over 15 seconds and then 'BANG!! And then I wondered? The firing pin busted the primer and then it tool over 15 seconds to burn through the caked powder. After then I wondered some more;

I then started pulling bullets, the powder was caked behind the bullet on some rounds and ahead of the primer on others. I had over 600 rounds, I did not need the bullets or the cases, all I wanted to salvage was the powder. I formed 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases, that worked. I have the 8/06 reamer, all I have to do is load neck size 30/06 to 8mm57 and then load.

And then there was all that 8mm57 ammo that split the case body as though the case body was hit with a shaped charge and streaker bullets. I know there is no such thing as 'I feel like I have been here before' in reloading but it seems I shot a bunch of WW1 ammo that streaked up my barrel; problem? That stuff was not easy to remove. That stuff kept streaking the barrel until it reduced the diameter of the barrel etc.

I still have close to 500 8MM57 rounds; I find nothing entertaining about shooting the stuff.

F. Guffey

[togor]

Yes some of those primers are quite old. Powder too. I recently pulled down about 400 rounds of brass-cased prewar SmK. Most of the powder was clumping and so I burned it off. Maybe 15% of the NZ flake powder was saved for reloading use. The bullets showed varying degrees of tarnish+ on the base and I sorted them into #2, #1 and #1+ grades (my own criteria). The K bullets are fun to shoot and for sure they are not making any more of them.

When reloading the powder and projectiles into resized US military cal .30 brass, it is one of those times when a 10% load reduction is necessary, due to the difference in web thickness between the German (thin) and US military (thick) brass.

The 8x57 has its strengths but it is an easy round to overlook given the other more convenient options that exist in this country.

[fguffey]

When reloading the powder and projectiles into resized US military cal .30 brass, it is one of those times when a 10% load reduction is necessary, due to the difference in web thickness between the German (thin) and US military (thick) brass.

And then the next reoladers claims the diameter of the powder column has nothing to do with it they also claim the powder column length has nothing to do with it; and then there is that very large group that claims the thickness of the case only means something when they say it does. I claim I have 30/06 cases with .260" thick case heads when measured from the cup above the web to the case head, at the very same time I claim I have cases with .200" cases heads from the cup above the web to the cas4e head.

And then there is that very large group that claims it is volume that counts, I would agree if I was getting low on ink.

F. Guffey

[AZshooter]

In the late 60's, Dad gave me his childhood Model 92 in .25-20 Win. Some of the old ammo had case neck splits.

Even back in the 60-s and 70's the ammo was considered as 'obsolete' and sold cheap from old inventory nobody wanted. I bought up all I could and shot it a lot. I saved all the un-split brass and reloaded with the old Lee-Loader. Years later I read about case annealing, and annealed all my brass - never had any split brass from that point on.

Since all my old ammo fired, I don't believe mercury migrating into brass was a factor, especially since my annealed cases are still in use today.

Turkish 8mm ammo dated 1747, I believe, was notorious for split brass & this was attributed to poor/no case neck annealing. I believe this was the same problem Winchester brass had.

[JimF]

. . . . .Turkish 8mm ammo dated 1747, I believe, was notorious for split brass & this was attributed to poor/no case neck annealing. . . . . . ..

Didn’t know there were brass cases back in 1747!

Bet it was scarce!

[butlersrangers]

"Craig from Kazoo" - Thanks for posting.

Be sure to save the Winchester cartridge box; IMHO - that is more valuable than the reloads it contains.
(It would be interesting to pull the bullets to see the actual projectiles, utilized by the re-loader)?

The original .30-06 target cartridges were too long to feed through a magazine, hence, the "single-load only" warning.

'Parashooter', thank you for posting the text, giving a relevant history about the continued specialized use of corrosive-mercuric priming by Winchester-Western.