Mt. St. Helens

[togor]

Nice recap program. Given the way government scientists are derided nowadays, I wonder if they would have any luck at all creating an exclusion zone.


https://youtu.be/fArB5Jz2wos

[Sandpebble]

I still believe in scientists ... and I don't believe in those who claim scientists have a political agenda

[lyman]

I still believe in scientists ... and I don't believe in those who claim scientists have a political agenda

depends on who is paying the grant money?

[bruce]

For years our extended family has gone camping together. Since the vast majority of them are in the NE, my family and I fly up. Many of them are in laboratory work, engineers, doctors, etc. At night the conversations always trend to politics. They are overwhelmingly liberal demokrats. And if they are any indication of how other such professional folks think and act, then from their statements one would gather that they most certainly have a social/political agenda that mirrors their left-wing liberal political and social views. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[Art]

I still believe in scientists ... and I don't believe in those who claim scientists have a political agenda

Believe in = trust in=have faith We now know what your religion is.

Scientists are human beings with the same capacity for prejudice, pride, intolerance and just plain foolishness as every body else. They can be just as emotionally tied to their own pet theories or hypothesis as anybody else. To deny that implies they are some sort of super beings. I have a brother whose a Chemist and a nephew whose a Physicist and trust me, they are very human.

One thing I learned in the University was that my professors had agendas and prejudices just like everybody else....period. I also learned to check behind what they told me. I sometimes found that not only were there possibly alternate possible conclusions to the ones they held but at times their lectures included things that were provably false or at least out dated. This was the most important thing I learned in school. Verify, it's the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.

Do you remember when we were told to hold off the eggs meat and shellfish because dietary cholesterol was bad mojo?? My job with the government allowed me to take three graduate hours of anatomy and physiology 19 1988 and I got an example of that first hand. The prof. who has a PhD in physiology mentioned that dietary cholesterol was of minimal importance in the production of serum cholesterol. Well, it turned out that the scientific community new the truth about dietary cholesterol at that time but the official line of the CDC and PHS was still that dietary cholesterol was bad for you. It turned out that they knew what my prof knew they just didn't change their guidelines for over a decade. Could it have been because they had prejudices when it came to what you and I should eat and when the science collapsed held on to it anyhow??? Well could it? Now eggs are good for you again. Don't worry about food because you will be able to find a study that a scientist is emotionally wedded to that will justify eating what you like and in a lot of cases they're making money off of it.

when I was in college from 1969-1972 the ultimate guru of environmental science was a fellow named Paul R. Ehrlich. Unlike Al Gore , or Bill Nye or an adolescent Swedish Girl Ehrlich is (yes he's still alive) an actual scientist. Ehrlich predicted in 1970 that there wouldn't be polar ice caps, much less winter, and the oceans would be dead right now. How many of you have seen Soylent Green? Soylent Green wasn't just a movie it was a serious attempt to show the world as he predicted it would be in 2020 wrapped in a murder mystery and was made with the collaboration of the association of environmental engineers. A few years ago Dr. Ehrlich said that he guesses he was wrong on that one but is still right on principle....oh, and the Maldives are still above water. Why is this?? Well it could be that we've cut emissions in this country 70% since the late 1960s despite a 59% increase in population and it could also be that Malthusian Economics on which Ehrlich based a lot of his thinking has been trumped by modern agriculture. and it could be that is calculation was off combined with the other stuff. The fact is the environmental movement is a lot of things, one thing it is is a way to get a guy like Al Gore who flunked out of both Law and Divinity School and who was a "C" student in Journalism as an undergrad to pontificate on science and get rich as Croesus while creating a massive personal "carbon footprint" in the process.

….and Lyman is right about the grant money.

Jeeez, give me a break.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that science is not of great value, it just isn't my religion, and scientists are subject to the same flaws and foibles as all human beings.

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

[Sandpebble]

For years our extended family has gone camping together. Since the vast majority of them are in the NE, my family and I fly up. Many of them are in laboratory work, engineers, doctors, etc. At night the conversations always trend to politics. They are overwhelmingly liberal demokrats. And if they are any indication of how other such professional folks think and act, then from their statements one would gather that they most certainly have a social/political agenda that mirrors their left-wing liberal political and social views. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

Well that's interesting Bruce. So do we discount the important work of highly educated people because they are Democrats ?

On one hand we have a highly educated scientist with an opinion on a disease , or water pollution etc etc

On the other hand we have a real estate inheritor with an opinion on a disease, or water pollution etc etc

.... I'm going with the scientist every time

[Sandpebble]

Art your long article was also very interesting....

but when the likes of Donald Trump try to tell us we can't trust scientists and medical professionals .... and we believe him...we're in deep xxxxe

[Art]

Art your long article was also very interesting....

but when the likes of Donald Trump try to tell us we can't trust scientists and medical professionals .... and we believe him...we're in deep xxxxe

Though I don't recall Donald Trump saying just that I will give you that one. When it comes to medical professionals politicians, being the whores they are, will believe whoever is convenient at the moment.

[togor]

So Art, what is science?

The search to find explanations for natural phenomena in the natural world. That is, saying "God did it" is faith, not science.

Now scientists are human beings, just like clerics, and subject as individuals to the same human foibles as anyone. Which means that the path of science can be bumpy.

But compare that to religion, where the worship of a bronze age God is still the norm. Consider Italy under Covid, where even the church embraced the essential role of modern scientific medicine. Yes there can be low quality scientists who succumb to cronyism and the pursuit of private gain over good science. But the same exact thing can be said about clerics and religion.

Science has gained market share over religion over the centuries, to the consternation of many. The reason for that seems obvious enough. Through the principles of the independent objective observer, and the need to demonstrate repeatable results, science over time builds on its past base of knowledge. Religion by contrast is inherently personal and subjective.

[PWC]

Taurus Bulba, that great Cossack patriot had it right...."Put your faith in your sword, and you sword in a Pole".

[bruce]

Well that's interesting Bruce. So do we discount the important work of highly educated people because they are Democrats ?
On one hand we have a highly educated scientist with an opinion on a disease , or water pollution etc etc
On the other hand we have a real estate inheritor with an opinion on a disease, or water pollution etc etc
.... I'm going with the scientist every time

With respect, discount the work of anyone regardless of education if they are demokrats. If that seems extreme, it is. It is just as extreme as the left-wing routine of discounting the work of anyone regardless of education if they are Republicans or Conservatives.

When it comes to disease, environmental issues, etc., go with what scientist have to say ... but pay attention to their political and social agenda. Do not be surprised when not if but when you find that the scientific positions they take well serve their own political and social interest. Oh, and pay attention to the money. Money talks. See who is paying the bills, funding the research, etc. Sincerely. bruce.

[togor]

Bruce would admit he is not taking a scientific view of things, and is himself in a highly subjective line of work.

[Art]

Art your long article was also very interesting....

but when the likes of Donald Trump try to tell us we can't trust scientists and medical professionals .... and we believe him...we're in deep xxxxe

Also...I got a little personal there, sorry about that. Sometimes I get a little carried away.

[S.A. Boggs]

May I inject something since I have used both science and religion lately as both are intertwined for me. With cancer medicine [science] is greatly needed and appreciated at the same time. Being a Christian I KNEW that I would get exactly what I needed when I had the most need. I lit up like a Christmas tree with cancer inside my lower body, I saw my results. My last physician read and re-read my test results as my massive cancer disappeared, yes I said vanished. I had very little tissue removed early on, basically some muscle that was diseased and then massive amounts of chemo/radiation to destroy the rest and it worked. I was also told by the same physician who said that my will to survive was strong and played a leading part in my recovery as well. Early on I was shown by God that I would survive if I wanted to and He showed me how to do it and I am here today. God is science as God is the Creator, humans are just the inheritors of His Creation.
Scoff if you want to, I KNOW MY REALITY and believe THAT THE CREATOR has a plan for those who will listen. Those who don't can and will continue in the wilderness seeking something to convince them otherwise of their value. I have already found my value and it is to be a part of God's Creation.:banana100::banana100::banana100::hello:
Sam

[rayg]

Art and Bruce..keep in mind there are people on this forum that have anti Trump political agendas coupled with up coming election. Ray

[shadycon]

A coin has two sides; Some like heads and some like tails. Some hate heads and some hate tails, but life goes on!!:1948:

[rayg]

And what I said is still true..

[lyman]

Well that's interesting Bruce. So do we discount the important work of highly educated people because they are Democrats ?
On one hand we have a highly educated scientist with an opinion on a disease , or water pollution etc etc
On the other hand we have a real estate inheritor with an opinion on a disease, or water pollution etc etc
.... I'm going with the scientist every time

With respect, discount the work of anyone regardless of education if they are demokrats. If that seems extreme, it is. It is just as extreme as the left-wing routine of discounting the work of anyone regardless of education if they are Republicans or Conservatives.

When it comes to disease, environmental issues, etc., go with what scientist have to say ... but pay attention to their political and social agenda. Do not be surprised when not if but when you find that the scientific positions they take well serve their own political and social interest. Oh, and pay attention to the money. Money talks. See who is paying the bills, funding the research, etc. Sincerely. bruce.


Bruce would admit he is not taking a scientific view of things, and is himself in a highly subjective line of work.

he may, or may not, not needed either way,

if you were as subjective as you say, the bolded part would strike true,

[Major Tom]

What about "climate change"? Those scientists were not politically influenced? Me being in the Midwest, we are having below freezing temps and the N.E. is getting a lot of snow. I would like climate change if it meant warmer winters.

[togor]

Science is a human endeavor. Like so many other human endeavors it experiences the good and bad traits of individual humans.

Can there be any doubt though that as a way of looking at the world, the scientific method has brought amazing and durable increases in human knowledge? I say no. Both good and bad? Definitely yes. Destabilizing? Absolutely! Powerful? Without question.

I work with scientists. No sh*t they have their biases. That doesn't invalidate the scientific approach in the broad sense.

Oh and I hear eggs are good for us this week so eat up because that could change soon.

[lyman]

how about butter, can I get some butter to put on my toast,


and does it have to be whole grain, or wheat , or spelt?

or has good old white bread come back in favor?

[Vern Humphrey]

One of the lessons to come out of Mount Saint Helens is the story of Harry R. Truman. Eighty-five years old and a widower, he lived in the fishing camp he and his wife owned. He refused to evacuate and is now presumed to be buried under 150 feet of volcanic debris. Because of him, Oregon changed its law, and now a person who refuses the Governor's order to evacuate can be forcibly moved.

Wait a minute! The man was 85 years old, living where he had always lived -- what kind of life would he have had if he had been forcibly relocated? He made his own choice, and no one can say he made the wrong choice.

[dryheat]

I agree with that one. Maybe not a good way to good but it sure would be something to see that close up. People can elect to not be resuscitated.
Mt St. Helens and the Japanese tsunami are a couple of the most amazing natural things I heard of in my life time. The meteor that blew the windows out over Russia was pretty impressive. Kind of reminds you that we live in an active universe.

[togor]

IIRC the Russians let play that it was some kind of American test. See what happens when a country is run by conspiracy theorists.

[dryheat]

Conspiracy theorists are like queers. You knew there some out there, but who knew there were so many out there.