View Full Version : Question about a parts USMC Sniper clone
Howdy all,
First time poster, and never saw this board before today. But I have a question that ya'll might be able to help with.
I am not a 1903 guy, but do have quite a few other milsurp rifles. Today at a local gun shop I ran across a 1903 that does not (to my untrained eye) make sense. My only reference is "The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle and its Variations", Joe Poyer, and, of course, the net.
The rifle is being called a "Hilux USMC Sniper", it is not being represented as a true WW II USMC rifle, but it is configured roughly as one would be. It looks like it might be a decent shooter, with a USMC Sniper configuration. I strongly suspect it is a gun assembled out of parts. But the price is not bad at all for a shooter.
The receiver is supposed to be a Rock Island. Because of the scope mount I cannot see all of the markings, but I can see that it does appear (half of the letters visible) to say Rock Island. I cannot see the original RI serial number.
The barrel is an SA from 11-42. Good rifling if a little frosted. Crown is quite nice.
The rifle appears to have a 1905 front and rear sight on it.
The stock is a decent condition Scant grip. The barrel bands, sling swivels, and stacking swivel are all a variety of different types.
It has a Wm. Malcolm scope marked "USMC - SNIPER" that looks like a copy of a Unertl.
The serial number is very odd. As I said above, the scope mount obscures the original RI serial. But on the right side, about where the serial of a real sniper rifle would be, is a number that does not match anything I have found. The serial number appears to be "SF100XX" very nicely done in a font that obviously does not match anything else on the rifle. Because of where and how this is done it leads me to believe this is not a home assembled parts rifle or if so this serial was in place before the parts got mixed together.
I am considering this rifle as a shooter and a curiosity. If it is indeed an assemble gun from parts it obviously has no value other than that. The price reflects that (only slightly more than the new cost of the scope that is on it). My questions are, what to pay attention to? What is up with that serial number, and does it match any known assemble rifles?
Thanks,
T!
clintonhater
07-18-2020, 08:20
I am considering this rifle as a shooter and a curiosity. If it is indeed an assemble gun from parts it obviously has no value other than that. The price reflects that (only slightly more than the new cost of the scope that is on it). My questions are, what to pay attention to? What is up with that serial number, and does it match any known assemble rifles?
It is of course a "parts gun," but I wouldn't worry about that, or the ser.no., at the price you indicated, which seems a very good deal.
Yeah, I am not concerned to much about it being a parts gun, that is my assumption and the price is right. I am, however, curious about the serial number, it looks professionally done and am wondering if anyone else has seen such a serial series. Also, not being a 1903 guy I am wondering what to keep an eye on when looking at a parts assembled gun, are there any common issues to look at or consider before purchasing or taking it to the range?
T!
Headspace, muzzle erosion and throat erosion would be the 3 things I’d want to measure before shooting the rifle. The term “parts guns” could apply to just about every rifle that went through an arsenal rebuilding process. Most were re-assembled with non original parts from later models or other manufacturers. It was common to see 03A3 parts on a 1940s rebuilt 1903. The 1903 bolt was often replaced by a safer 03A3 bolt and will have a Remington “R” stamped on it and the handle will be angled to the rear, sort of a “swept back” appearance. The single gas escape hole on the 03A3 bolt is much larger than the hole on a 1903 bolt.
clintonhater
07-18-2020, 10:57
Headspace, muzzle erosion and throat erosion would be the 3 things I’d want to measure before shooting the rifle.
Of those three, only headspace is a safety issue. I presume he's not taking it to Camp Perry, & you can tolerate a lot of muzzle and throat erosion for the right price.
I think you would need to know if the serial number was in the high range for Rock Islands ( above 285K ) before considering it for a shooter.
Of those three, only headspace is a safety issue. I presume he's not taking it to Camp Perry, & you can tolerate a lot of muzzle and throat erosion for the right price.
I wouldn’t buy a rifle with a shot out barrel regardless of the price. But that’s just me. I own a non-shooting 1931 M1916 Spanish Mauser 7mm that was given to me years ago. It’s in nice shape but with about 1/2” of throat rifling that’s missing.
Johnny P
07-20-2020, 11:59
The original Rock Island serial number should be low enough on the right side of the receiver to be read. Rock Island receivers up to the 285500 serial number range were single heat treatment and known to be brittle. If it has been D&T'd it has probably been annealed. I would try to find out what it was before I jumped off into it.
cplnorton
07-22-2020, 06:48
This sounds odd to me because usually scope blocks that would fit one of those scopes, shouldn't obscure a serial number.
Then the serial you are describing sounds really odd too.
If you are wondering if it has any chance it was built like this by the Marines, I don't think there is any chance of that at all.
But I would be curious to see some of pics of that serial on it.
This sounds odd to me because usually scope blocks that would fit one of those scopes, shouldn't obscure a serial number.
Then the serial you are describing sounds really odd too.
If you are wondering if it has any chance it was built like this by the Marines, I don't think there is any chance of that at all.
But I would be curious to see some of pics of that serial on it.
Thanks all for the responses.
No, I did not assume in any way this was even remotely associated with real service or the Marines. My assumption is that it this was a random set of parts thrown together by someone.
I have a few blurry images of the gun, I will post a few below. Unfortunately I have not gotten to go back for better images. I have decided not to purchase it, so I never followed up.
The serial is indeed odd. I can find nothing even remotely similar to it anyplace I have looked. But it does look professionally done, not some hack and scratch.
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/50/78250/2/170905599.9H6Mo1JJ.jpg
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/50/78250/2/170905600.02IkhCDT.jpg
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/50/78250/2/170905602.VBwke4Qd.jpg
Interesting rifle. Could be an early ‘03? It appears to have a pre-WW1 straight handle bolt and a single gas escape hole. The finish looks odd. The serial number isn’t within the blocks of numbers assigned to the arsenals.
Johnny P
07-27-2020, 07:51
Serial number is bogus and not original to that receiver.
JB White
08-01-2020, 06:57
Is it just me, or does that SF prefix raise the Santa Fe alarm bells? If they started with 100k it would be a low number from a possible small batch.
Not saying I know. Only that's what crossed my mind upon seeing it.
Is it just me, or does that SF prefix raise the Santa Fe alarm bells? If they started with 100k it would be a low number from a possible small batch.
Not saying I know. Only that's what crossed my mind upon seeing it.
JB - Good to hear from you again.
Tell me more about Santa Fe. I was thinking the rifle could be an early prototype but couldn’t find anything on the SF In the serial number.
JB White
08-01-2020, 08:40
The name Santa Fe came to my attention regarding the "Jungle Carbines" made up from SMLE and No4 British rifles. (Long story there) marketed by Golden State Arms.
Since that time the trade name has been used for other rifles. Nat Ord comes to mind regarding 1903's and such.
Not saying there is the connection here. Only suspicion reflex on my part. Hence my question. Hoping to learn something one way or the other.
Good to see you still hanging around on the site, Merc. :)
It is not worth the money or the risk shooting something unknown such as this SF marked receiver.
There are too many nice 1903's around without taking a chance
early 1903 rifles were serial numbered in large serif4794347944 numbers
It is not worth the money or the risk shooting something unknown such as this SF marked receiver.
There are too many nice 1903's around without taking a chance
early 1903 rifles were serial numbered in large serif4794347944 numbers
Totally agree. What’s an early M1903 with a 4 digit serial number worth?
Really not worth alot, mine came from the CMP auction and were built-up using period parts.
I do enjoy shooting them at 25 feet with 32ACP or 32 S&W
s/n 3670 has a SA 6-16 barrel, early bolt H I and modified rod bayonet stock with single bolt
s/n 4918 has a SA 2-18 barrel and SA double bolt stock with POD D and BA-WL rebuild stamps
photo shows target at around 20 or 25 ft, fun to shoot indoors47945
Johnny P
08-01-2020, 01:25
The Santa Fe serial numbers started somewhere around the 5 million range (past where U.S. military 03-A3 rifle serial numbers ended.)
JB White
08-01-2020, 02:20
The Santa Fe serial numbers started somewhere around the 5 million range (past where U.S. military 03-A3 rifle serial numbers ended.)
Good to know. Thanks for that..
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