Lend Lease trench guns

[colt thompson]

Do lend lease trench guns exist? Are they marked in a similar fashion to the 1911A1 pistols?

[scosgt]

Doubtful but anything is possible.

[Johnny P]

I have never seen shotguns listed in the small arms sent to England as L-L, and have never seen a shotgun with British proofs.

[colt thompson]

Here is one coming up for sale
https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/50/lot/26246?url=%2Fm%2Fmy-items%2Fall

[Tom Doniphon]

Doubtful that it's a Lend Lease gun. It's a post WWI production shotgun made in 1920. It's probably not even a military shotgun. More likely a commercial trench gun either sold to Great Britain or somehow just made its way to Britain.

[scosgt]

Doubtful that it's a Lend Lease gun. It's a post WWI production shotgun made in 1920. It's probably not even a military shotgun. More likely a commercial trench gun either sold to Great Britain or somehow just made its way to Britain.

By serial it could be a commercial, but nothing with that serial would be wearing a WWI "Pat applied for" adapter. I also doubt it was made in 1920. The Maadis book is way off. More like 1925-30 in my opinion.

[Johnny P]

I should have been clearer in my post. I have never seen a U.S. military shotgun with British proofs. The shotgun in question doesn't show any U.S. property markings, and missed the L-L shipments by some 17 years.

Amoskeag describes the proofs as import proofs, but anything military was not proofed until released by the military for commercial sale.

"Additionally, the left side of the barrel is marked with crisp British import proofs,"

[Tom Doniphon]

By serial it could be a commercial, but nothing with that serial would be wearing a WWI "Pat applied for" adapter. I also doubt it was made in 1920. The Maadis book is way off. More like 1925-30 in my opinion.

It is a 1920 gun. According to the Winchester Polishing Room serialization records, that is the year the serial number was applied to the receiver. When available for a particular model Winchester firearm, those serialization records are the most accurate source for dating a gun.

As far as the bayonet adaptor, It might be correct. I have data on even later made commercial Model 97 trench guns in the 800,000 range that have the "Pat Appl For"mark on the bayonet adaptor and also a couple with the "Patented 1918" mark on the adaptor. Winchester must of had some leftover WWI adaptors that they used on some of the interwar made trench guns.

[Johnny P]

That would make it 21 years too early for Lend-Lease.

[Tom Doniphon]

Yes, way early. And as you mentioned, there's nothing in the Lend Lease small arms lists showing shotguns. And aren't there some records of direct sales to Britain before the Lend Lease program? I don't think there is any mention of shotguns in those records either.

[Johnny P]

The British Purchasing Commission was established in the U.S. in 1939 for the purpose of buying war material for England. After the huge loss at Dunkirk, fearing an invasion they bought small arms for the Home Guard from several U.S. gun manufacturers, including just about every handgun Colt had on their shelves. It didn't matter what type or what caliber. The first shipment from Colt first went to Winchester where they were packed with the correct ammunition and then forwarded to England.

These weapons had British inspection marks, but were not military proofed, and some had the British "Broad Arrow" property mark, which the Model 97 in question does not have. Again, it was 20 years too early for British Purchasing Commission purchase. The commercial proofs on the Model 97 Winchester were used through 1954.