Indian Scout Trap

[Discus420]

I just purchased SN 118328 at Auction. I went way overboard. I will be selling toys for the next 2 months in order to pay for ! Im not a wealthy guy so all crying aside its listed in SRS as 118328 R 040182 INDIAN SCOUTS, FT BOWIE, ARIZ I asked SRS for a detailed letter ,lets see what happens. Can anyone recommend books that might contain info on Scout guns from Ft Bowie I have several books on Trapdoors but no info at all on this subject. There are 79 total Trapdoors listed as Indian Scouts, Ft Bowie.... Does anyone know of another????

Any info is appreciated


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[bruce]

Good looking rifle. Will follow this post with interest. Sincerely. bruce.

[Dick Hosmer]

Congratulations on a nice find. Sadly I know of no books that would specifically help you. NOW comes the thrill of the hunt! Are you going to get the SRS letter?

[kj47]

Nice find Discus420. congratulations.

[70ish]

Specific information other than the SRS letter you've already requested, will be hard to find. In normal times, I probably would try first by contacting the Visitor Center for Fort Bowie.
But they are currently closed because of the pandemic. I know they had a couple of Trapdoors on display, but I have no idea if they have access to any books or information on the details for items in their collections and even their volunteer reinactors are gone. They, as collectors themselves, often have suggestions to offer. In the meantime, a search for books about the history of Fort Bowie can be fun, educational, and sometimes rewarding. Unfortunately, it can also be expensive, frustrating and usually unrewarded.

There is a really splendid book by Dusan P. Farrington called Arming and Equipping the United States Cavalry 1865 - 1902. It is sometimes hard to find and usually isn't available through Interlibrary Loan, but if you happen to live in the right place, you might find a nearby library that actually has a copy. It usually can't be loaned out, but you can spend some time at the library looking through the book (you may have to make a reservation). Unfortunately as well, many libraries are also closed or severely limited by the pandemic.

I could never find a copy within many miles of my location, so I actually bought a copy. Its loaded with information, but not as many serial numbers as advertised or as I'd hoped. But it has many photos, including small groups of Indian Scouts in Arizona. There you will clearly see the 1873 Rifles and you will learn some of the Companies or Regiments to which they were assigned. It appears, by the way that over its life, Fort Bowie as probably garrisoned by several different regiments. It can be mind numbing to search for the answers, and the book has an odd index. It does have extensive lists for sources that appear throughout and these may be the most help of all. Good Luck on a very nice find. The condition looks wonderful considering all it must have been through..

[Carlsr]

Very nice find Discuse420!!! Congrats..

[Discus420]

Congratulations on a nice find. Sadly I know of no books that would specifically help you. NOW comes the thrill of the hunt! Are you going to get the SRS letter?

The first thing I did was send in the 35$ to renew my subscription as I have not received a copy of the US Martial Arms Collector since Dec 2019 #161 I also included 175$ for a detail letter so I hope to hear from them soon. Has anyone gotten a newer copy since the #161 Dec 2019?????

Sometimes its hard to get a response from them they did say they had a flood last year so I am hoping!!!!!!

The second thing I did was contact Fort Bowie to see if someone would help (Thanks 70ish)

I also found this amazing article on using the National Archives specifically for Indian Scouts:
https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2009/summer/indian.html
I am still confounded on using the National Archive site its not easy or intuitive

Roadkingtrax gave me the name of the Archivist SmokeEaterPilot I meet on this site a few years back and hope to contact him.

[Discus420]

I have not been able to message Archivist SmokeEaterPilot (Andrew Stolinski) Is he still on the site??

[Discus420]

Never Mind the last post I found SmokeEaterPilot (Andrew Stolinski)

He has a great site of his Gun Archive/ History site Everyone interested in guns should check it out
https://archivalresearchgroup.com/

[Carlsr]

I have received March and September. My subscription is on auto renewal. I met Wayne at the Baltimore show 2 years ago and sighed up then. This is the e mail I write to waynegagner@yahoo.com
Usually takes a few days for them to respond to e mails.

[Discus420]

I just found out the archives are presently closed to the CoViD pandemic to all outside researchers

what a bummer

[Discus420]

Can anyone tell me what the cartouche should be on this rifle 118328 I believe it should have been made in 1879 ???

[Dick Hosmer]

That would be my guess as well. 1879 cartouches (of either type) are not often found. I've never owned one, nor seen one - though I didn't pick up EVERY TD I saw over the last 50 years.

[Discus420]

That would be my guess as well. 1879 cartouches (of either type) are not often found. I've never owned one, nor seen one - though I didn't pick up EVERY TD I saw over the last 50 years.
Dick
Im confused so if it was made in 1879 it might not have a cartouche? The rifle is being shipped so I haven't laid hands on it ,just paid for it and anxiously waiting.

[Dick Hosmer]

No, that isn't what I meant - for some reason, guns from that particular period just don't show up that often. There are two types, the first (ESA/1879) being the scarcest, and [SWP/1879]. Allin passed away and the mark had to be changed. (ESA/1877) is scarce, (ESA/1878) is uncommon, but [SWP/1880], and up, is rather common.

[Discus420]

Thanks Dick, that says alot I was using this chart I found online to date the serial number 118328 to year of manufacture48191 which would be 1879 Does anyone know if this is accurate ?

[Tom Trevor]

No its not. I have rifles 108027 ESA 1879 also 121595 SWP 1879. Check the sale section at Dr. Frascas site he has two 1879 dated rifles shown for sale. Do let us know what your rifle shows best estimate is if not worn off from use would be SWP 1879.

[Carlsr]

Al's chart is much better than that one.

[Discus420]

Al's chart is much better than that one.

Thanks all I found Dr. Frascas charts and they seem to agree on 1879 for this rifle (i think)

[Dick Hosmer]

One way that I value a chart by where they put the 52 Infantry/Cavalry 28" barrel rifles, which are KNOWN to occur in the 197000 to 197450 range, and were made in 1882. That is one of the few pinpoints where we can tie a number to a date. That other chart (whose author I respect a great deal) got that wrong. Simple mistake, or massive number shift? I don't know.