Help with 1866 Second Model Allin Conversion at the Gun Show

[artyldr01]

Hello all,

I stumbled onto, what I'm pretty sure is a 2nd model Allin Conversion (three band) 1866 Springfield. Sadly I didn't take any photos but it will be at another gun show in two weeks if not sold. It is missing the cleaning rod, the lock plate is 1863 dated, the breech block 1866 dated. I didn't see any cartouche. It had a strong action, the bore was actually filled with fuzzy stuff but looked fairly decent for the age.

My first question is about the "history" of the 1866. I've read through my copy of Al Frasca's book 2, and it gives good info on the development, but I would like to know about its service life. I presume it is possible to have seen service during the Indian Wars somewhere? It was a fairly short service life but during an important time in our history I feel. I have a fondness for the "conversion" weapons, I also own a 1860 Army / 1871 Richard Conversion revolver and I think this rifle would be a good complement to it?

Does the 1863 lock plate infer that this was a rifle made in 1863 with presumed Civil War service? The idea that this is representative of two different conflicts in our history really excites me!

Are these generally shootable with the correct ammunition? The reality is I rarely shoot them anyway, but I am slowly working my way backwards in time with representatives of every major U.S. type of weapon. I currently have the "M4" through Krag. I generally only collect one of any type of weapon, meaning if I have one "trapdoor" or "krag" I will likely not buy all the other varieties. If I were to have one would this be a good addition to the collection or would an 1873 be a better representative of that era?

Lastly, the asking price was in the $900 range. I have actually been trying to NOT add collector guns that I will rarely, if ever, fire, but these artifacts truly get my mind racing about what they have seen (I know, buy the gun not the story) and feel like this one would have a lot to say.

Based on what little I have been able to provide, is this 2nd Allin 1866 Springfield for $900 worth pursuing further if she is at the next gun show? I see a few on the auction site in the 1000~2000 range, but no bids.

Can anyone educate me on the life of the 1866 in U.S. Service while I dig into my reference books?

What indicators should I look for to ensure it is not a parts gun or molested in some other way?

Thank you all very much and Merry Christmas!

[Kragrifle]

Always remember, sins of omission are worse than sins of commission!

[Dick Hosmer]

Well, for starters, the 1866 was used by the soldiers in victories at two of the better known Indian fights, Wagon Box and Hayfield - both on the Bozeman Trail, near Ft. Phil Kearny in 1867. This was shortly after the Fetterman disaster which was like a smaller LBH. The Wagon Box fight stands out in particular. Several hundred Indians, led by Red Cloud attacked a small (32 or so) party of wood-cutters. Unbeknownst to the the Indians was the fact that the troops had just been issued the new breechloaders. Expecting an easy victory after the first volley from the muzzle-loading muskets, they got a rude shock when their best troops (saved for the main assault) met a withering fire from the defenders. Of course, finding a rifle which was there would be impossible, but the model shines, being the first standard issue in large quantity US breechloader. They are definitely shootable. You should have an 1873 as well. If you have Frasca's book(s) you are well-equipped to determine originality. You could also refer to www.picturetrail.com/sa4570af, and you might be interested in my little guide listed there.

[artyldr01]

Mr. Hosmer. Thank you so much! I appreciate hearing from one of THE experts. I'll definitely keep digging into the books. Thank you for the additional reference source. I know without photos it is impossible to speak with any certainty, but if it is unmolested is $900 a fair price, with a missing cleaning rod? I see them listed for quote a bit more, but not selling.

[Dick Hosmer]

Mr. Hosmer. Thank you so much! I appreciate hearing from one of THE experts. I'll definitely keep digging into the books. Thank you for the additional reference source. I know without photos it is impossible to speak with any certainty, but if it is unmolested is $900 a fair price, with a missing cleaning rod? I see them listed for quote a bit more, but not selling.

You're very welcome. $900 is not a steal, but probably a pretty fair price. I'd try and get it for less if possible of course - finding an original rod won't be easy, and will be well over $100 I'm sure. Repros can be had for less, but many are crap. At least the 1866s, being straight, are easier to make without having to deal with two diameters and the swell as on the 1868 and later.

[artyldr01]

Thank you again. I will continue to research and be prepared when I see her again in a couple weeks. I think she would look good with my Richards Conversion, but I'll definitely offer less, especially understand the challenge of finding a cleaning rod.

[Lead Snowstorm]

If you only plan to get one representative trapdoor, given your interest in possibly shooting it, I'd recommend one of the .45-70 variants to start with. That's what I did. (This opinion brought to you by someone who just bought his 4th trapdoor - an 1866.)

One further thought about service - with the 1866, no guarantee it didn't go east instead of west for its service. About half of them did, if memory serves...since there's no serial, there's no way to confirm, but I've gathered the impression that a stamped number in the stock and a new-manufacture stock (indicated by a single cartouche) are suggestions (particularly the former) that a rifle may have gone to France.

Without seeing pics, it's hard to offer firm recommendations, but for me, the lack of any cartouche would be a major detraction. Then again, I think I tend to prioritize cartouches more than many.

One thing that really struck me upon getting my hands on my 1866 is how differently the weight balances on it compared to my other trapdoors (and Krags, incidentally). These long rifles from the late 19th century have always surprised me with how finely balanced they are, all the way down to the thin-forearm Krags - lower rate of fire means needing less thermal protection for the off-hand, I reckon. The 1866 is much more nose-heavy, something I wasn't expecting, but that is quite obvious in retrospect considering the barrel liner.

[artyldr01]

Lead,

Thank you. Very good observation as well. I did read that many went to the Franco-Prussian War. I will definitely go back to look at it with new eyes and knowledge and look REAL hard for a cartouche (the reason I sold my last 1884 was that it had been "cleaned up" and was missing the cartouche).

Anytime I see something sub-$1000 these days It makes me think I'm getting a bargain, not always true.

However, if anything, this opened my eyes to at least WHAT I want, if not this exact rifle.

I really have a soft spot for conversions, as I believe they are truly a crossroads of two eras.

[Kragrifle]

I have found two different diameter cleaning rods in the Second Allin rifles

[butlersrangers]

Mr. Hosmer is very modest. He authored a very fine paperback work, that gives nice detailed coverage of the U.S. Model 1866 Rifle.

"The .58 and .50 Caliber Rifles & Carbines of Springfield Armory", by Richard Hosmer.
If you have an interest in the era or the evolution of the Allin Conversions, you want this book!

It is available directly from Richard on ebay and he will kindly autograph it for you.

Get one quick, to guide you through your contemplated purchase!

[artyldr01]

Thank you! I'm on it! I found another 1866 at a local show as well, looks in much better shape, with cleaning rod. Barrel and all the bands are in the bright. Proprietor wants $1500. Ill add photos when I get back to the computer.