Late Rock Isand info requested

[Viking Guy]

Gents, I've got a Rock Island 1903 S/N 354744 with a 4-22 dated RIA barrel. I've Ferris' book on the rifle but still have a few questions and am looking for some help. Firstly the bolt is swept with a small NS on the bolt root. I have a spare straight bolt with NS on the safety lug. Is one or the other correct or both? The stock has no grasping grooves, 2 bolts, no cartouche, but a very worn or poorly stamped P on the wrist and possibly a very small flaming bomb on the stock tip under the barrel, smooth butt plate, so I'm guessing replacement but I've not disassembled to see if it is an A3 stock. On the right side of the butt stock a 4 digit number is stamped in the wood but does not correspond to the serial number. The receiver screws are staked so I'm reluctant to disassemble it. I'd also like to know, if possible, when the rifle was built and/or assembled. The rifle has matching and even wear and does not appear to be a rebuild. Are the stamped stock numbers indicative of a rack number and if so, by whom?

Would appreciate any and all thoughts on this one.

TIA
VG

[twh]

I think that your combination of parts is likely just a random coincidence and not original. If you want to check if it’s an A3 stock just look at the stock behind the rear sight to see if it’s cut for the A3 hand guard ring.

[J.J.]

The correct bolt for your rifle would have a straight handle with NS on the safety lug. It would also be stamped with the ordnance shell and flame over 50 on the bottom root of the bolt handle. Some very late R.I.A. service rifles are reported to have a bent handle but I have never personally seen one installed in a rifle thought to be original. It is a rather odd bend, unlike the one on S.A. bolts I have only seen them fitted to the 1919 R.I.A. National Match rifle, a rather rare bird.
A bent handle bolt with the small NS without periods stamped on the top root of the bolt handle would be of Springfield Armory manufacture around the 1929 period.
J.J.

[Viking Guy]

Thanks for the replies. I've confirmed the stock is an A3 stock. I'm still curious as to why both screws would be peened or staked to the trigger guard and what the 4 digit number stamped into the stock signifies and who would have done that.

[pickax]

The 4 digits stamped in the butt is a Greek trait. Your stock is possibly swapped from a Greek rifle.

[Merc]

A lot of 1903s went through rebuilds prior to and during WW2 and were given 1903A3 parts.

1903 Buttplates:

http://www.vishooter.net/m1903/buttplates.jpg

1903 Bolt photo (from CMP Booklet):

48989

Many 1903s were given the safer 1903A3 bolt when they were rebuilt during WW2 which has a large gas escape hole on the left side. My Remington 03A3 bolt is stamped with an R on the handle.

Common characteristics of the Greek 1903 returns:

The last 4 digits of the rifle serial number is stamped on butt stock and electro-penciled on the bolt handle.

The floor plate is pinned and has a B stamped on it.

[fguffey]

Ns means it is nickel steel. The Maine used Nickel steel, the Winchester 94 that used smokeless powder did not use Nickel steel until 1895 because John Browning would not allow Winchester to sell the 94 without Nickel Steel.

Springfield and the rest were slow to catch on.

F. Guffey

Compressors used Nickel steel, nothing like nickel steel when sealing all those pin holes. Ford built many V8 engines, they also had to repair a lot of V8 engines because of pin hole leaks.

[Viking Guy]

Thanks to all for the great replies. It seems then, I have a RIA barrel receiver in an ex Greek stock that was at some point mated to the rifle even though the numbers do not correspond to each other. And, the bolt currently in the rifle has no electropencil engraving. Still, its a good looking rifle in very nice shape and to try to make it "correct" would probably be a fools errand and not worth the expense in trying to do so...unless a correct stock could be found at a reasonble price. Again, thanks!

[fguffey]

Thanks to all for the great replies. It seems then, I have a RIA barrel receiver in an ex Greek stock that was at some point mated to the rifle even though the numbers do not correspond to each other. And, the bolt currently in the rifle has no electro engraving. Still, its a good looking rifle in very nice shape and to try to make it "correct" would probably be a fools errand and not worth the expense in trying to do so...unless a correct stock could be found at a reasonable price. Again, thanks!

I was in Victoria going in and out of pawn shops and gun stores. In one of the pawn shops I found a Rock Island high/low number; I thought the price was good, all I ask the shop owner to do was convince me the barrel had rifling. and so he began, I told him I would be back etc., go to lunch etc.. I do not know how much time he spent scrubbing caked carbon from the barrel and then finally he found evidence of rifling. The barrel diameter was reduced because the rifle had not been cleaned in years, bullets fired through this barrel were reduced in diameter by .003"' what does that mean? IF that receiver was going to fall apart it would have done that years ago. When I got the barrel cleaned up the barrel looked like brand new inside. I do not spend as much time as others looking for fault.

As some know I have tried to help others with bolts, a resource on on multiarray correct rifles built a Rock Island (period correct 1911), When he was finished he started with the head spacing (?). He did not have a gage to fit it. He had over 20 30/06 head space gages of the usually suspected length.

When I started to help he handed me the box of gages thinking I was in the same rut; so I asked him if he wanted to know if the bolt would close on one of those gages or the length of the chamber from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. When finished he had .0075" clearance between the case head and bolt face. At the time I had 35 30/06 bolts, new/never used replacement bolts, I assured him we could check everyone of them to try to determine if one of them would shorten the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I assured we would not find one bolt one of the 100+ 03 or 03/A3 in his pile of parts that would shorten the chamber .0025"-but JIC, I would check everyone of them just in case.

F. Guffey

[Sunray]

"...combination of parts is..." Far more likely to be typical. Weapons techs have never cared who made what part. Parts came out of a bin and got installed. In any case, bolts are not drop in parts. They must be fitted for headspace. Mind you, it's entirely possible your 2 have been fitted, but not likely. Easy way to find out is with headspace gauges. Those you can buy or rent. Reamer Rentals rents 'em for very little money.
S/N 354744 is from 1920, according to the Old Guns S/N look up. It's possible the barrel wasn't installed until 1922 but it's more likely from a rebuild. Preferably an arsenal rebuild.
The right hand bolt in the CMP Booklet picture appears to be an '03A4 bolt.

[Viking Guy]

Concur on headspace, I've got the gauges.

[Merc]

Read all you can about President Truman’s effort to arm the Greek patriots in their fight against communism before you replace the old stock. It might be the most interesting part of your rifle.

[fguffey]

Concur on headspace, I've got the gauges.

I have a M1917 with .016" clearance between the case head and bolt. That means the chamber is field reject length +.002". I have another 03 Springfield that has a chamber that is .0025" longer than a go-gage length chamber.

The go-gage will indicate if the bolt will close on the gage; it does not indicate 'by how much'. I did not spend a lot of time worshiping the go, no and beyond gages, I do appreciate them as standards and transfers.

F. Guffey

[Viking Guy]

I've really enjoyed this discussion on my rifle, kinda felt like old times. I intend to follow up on all the suggestions and advice now that I've learned so much more on this particular piece. I look forward to more informative discussions in the future.

VG