View Full Version : 1873 Trapdoor Carbine
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 10:10
I was recommended here for a SRS on this carbine, I don't know what that stands for but here it is. I came across this carbine at a gun show and bought it. I believe it was way under the money, in great original condition. I posted about it on the Shiloh Rifle Forum and they told me to come here and have it analyzed. Here are pictures, I hope to find out something about this carbine. I have already kilt a gopher with it...
https://i.imgur.com/qOQayo9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hXggpVd.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nj5TOVI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZYY7Hgb.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gDH0xwz.jpg
- - - Updated - - -
More pictures...
https://i.imgur.com/cI1eePW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CTukB8j.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bcXTfz7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Ch2hXr9.jpg
Lead Snowstorm
05-21-2021, 12:39
Neat looking piece. SRS stands for Springfield Research Service, which compiled a list of serial numbers found during records searches. Most weapons will not appear - only a small minority of numbers appear in the SRS database, and they were not issued sequentially, so a miss is as good as a mile - but it is interesting to see the configurations (carbine, rifle) of nearby weapons.
Unfortunately I?m away from my books right now so I can?t help much. But from what I recall, there are some notable features.
First, it looks like rather a low number serial. That?s interesting as the pre-LBH carbines command a premium. I don?t recall the exact serial hotspot ranges for the 7th Cav, but I know some here do.
The rear sight is also early, and also retained by the original slotless screws. That?s good.
The eagle over crossed arrows on the door and the ?1873? on the lock plate also go with early guns.
The stock does not appear that it would have been original, as in the first stock placed on the gun. Eyeballing it, it seems to have the short wrist/long comb configuration. That?s not necessarily unusual, as most of the early trapdoors were overhauled.
If possible, could we get photos of the left side of the barrel just in front of the receiver; a detail of the front sight; the muzzle crown; the underside of the stock fore-end; and the buttplate? Those will make a good start in assisting the folks here who know more than I to help with more info.
Is the butt plate smooth or is there a sliding door? Can you post a picture of the front of the stock at the curve.
Shrapnel . . . take a look here . . . .
The U.S. Springfield Trapdoor Rifle Information Center (http://trapdoorcollector.com/)
. . . .read through everything!
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 02:59
If you look closely, you can see the letters J C stamped lightly in the stock to the rear of the bottom tang.
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 03:23
Neat looking piece. SRS stands for Springfield Research Service, which compiled a list of serial numbers found during records searches. Most weapons will not appear - only a small minority of numbers appear in the SRS database, and they were not issued sequentially, so a miss is as good as a mile - but it is interesting to see the configurations (carbine, rifle) of nearby weapons.
Unfortunately I?m away from my books right now so I can?t help much. But from what I recall, there are some notable features.
First, it looks like rather a low number serial. That?s interesting as the pre-LBH carbines command a premium. I don?t recall the exact serial hotspot ranges for the 7th Cav, but I know some here do.
The rear sight is also early, and also retained by the original slotless screws. That?s good.
The eagle over crossed arrows on the door and the ?1873? on the lock plate also go with early guns.
The stock does not appear that it would have been original, as in the first stock placed on the gun. Eyeballing it, it seems to have the short wrist/long comb configuration. That?s not necessarily unusual, as most of the early trapdoors were overhauled.
If possible, could we get photos of the left side of the barrel just in front of the receiver; a detail of the front sight; the muzzle crown; the underside of the stock fore-end; and the buttplate? Those will make a good start in assisting the folks here who know more than I to help with more info.
https://i.imgur.com/SQ0gdrG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MXW9p8L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1IpHoio.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xeztbco.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lv7K965.jpg
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 03:26
https://i.imgur.com/HgNDzIZ.jpg
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 03:48
Neat looking piece. SRS stands for Springfield Research Service, which compiled a list of serial numbers found during records searches. Most weapons will not appear - only a small minority of numbers appear in the SRS database, and they were not issued sequentially, so a miss is as good as a mile - but it is interesting to see the configurations (carbine, rifle) of nearby weapons.
Unfortunately I?m away from my books right now so I can?t help much. But from what I recall, there are some notable features.
First, it looks like rather a low number serial. That?s interesting as the pre-LBH carbines command a premium. I don?t recall the exact serial hotspot ranges for the 7th Cav, but I know some here do.
The rear sight is also early, and also retained by the original slotless screws. That?s good.
The eagle over crossed arrows on the door and the ?1873? on the lock plate also go with early guns.
The stock does not appear that it would have been original, as in the first stock placed on the gun. Eyeballing it, it seems to have the short wrist/long comb configuration. That?s not necessarily unusual, as most of the early trapdoors were overhauled.
If possible, could we get photos of the left side of the barrel just in front of the receiver; a detail of the front sight; the muzzle crown; the underside of the stock fore-end; and the buttplate? Those will make a good start in assisting the folks here who know more than I to help with more info.
https://i.imgur.com/SQ0gdrG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MXW9p8L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1IpHoio.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xeztbco.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lv7K965.jpg
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 03:53
Neat looking piece. SRS stands for Springfield Research Service, which compiled a list of serial numbers found during records searches. Most weapons will not appear - only a small minority of numbers appear in the SRS database, and they were not issued sequentially, so a miss is as good as a mile - but it is interesting to see the configurations (carbine, rifle) of nearby weapons.
Unfortunately I?m away from my books right now so I can?t help much. But from what I recall, there are some notable features.
First, it looks like rather a low number serial. That?s interesting as the pre-LBH carbines command a premium. I don?t recall the exact serial hotspot ranges for the 7th Cav, but I know some here do.
The rear sight is also early, and also retained by the original slotless screws. That?s good.
The eagle over crossed arrows on the door and the ?1873? on the lock plate also go with early guns.
The stock does not appear that it would have been original, as in the first stock placed on the gun. Eyeballing it, it seems to have the short wrist/long comb configuration. That?s not necessarily unusual, as most of the early trapdoors were overhauled.
If possible, could we get photos of the left side of the barrel just in front of the receiver; a detail of the front sight; the muzzle crown; the underside of the stock fore-end; and the buttplate? Those will make a good start in assisting the folks here who know more than I to help with more info.
https://i.imgur.com/SQ0gdrG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MXW9p8L.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1IpHoio.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xeztbco.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Lv7K965.jpg
Tom Trevor
05-21-2021, 07:53
Along with a later stock the shaft breech block and extractor ride on is is from a later wide receiver post December 1878. Still a very nice carbine.
Shrapnel
05-21-2021, 09:14
If possible, could we get photos of the left side of the barrel just in front of the receiver; a detail of the front sight; the muzzle crown; the underside of the stock fore-end; and the buttplate? Those will make a good start in assisting the folks here who know more than I to help with more info.
https://i.imgur.com/SQ0gdrG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MXW9p8L.jpg
- - - Updated - - -
More pictures...
https://i.imgur.com/1IpHoio.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Xeztbco.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/I6Nxrkk.jpg
Lead Snowstorm
05-22-2021, 07:18
Looks like the barrel may be a replacement at least - I don?t believe they applied proof marks at that serial number.
I *think* the muzzle and front sight look ok. The tip of the stock also looks fine to my eyes.
But all of this nit-picking is just from the collector?s perspective. It clearly still gets the job done on varmints!
If you look closely, you can see the letters J C stamped lightly in the stock to the rear of the bottom tang.
Hopeful the true experts will chime in, but those could be subinspection stamps. Given a replacement stock, it wouldn?t necessarily have received proof and inspection cartouches, and a goodly number of the carbines I?ve seen come up for sale on the trapdoor site linked above have similar replacement stocks that have been on the gun since the Spanish-American War.
Shrapnel
05-22-2021, 08:39
Looks like the barrel may be a replacement at least - I don?t believe they applied proof marks at that serial number.
I *think* the muzzle and front sight look ok. The tip of the stock also looks fine to my eyes.
But all of this nit-picking is just from the collector?s perspective. It clearly still gets the job done on varmints!
Hopeful the true experts will chime in, but those could be subinspection stamps. Given a replacement stock, it wouldn?t necessarily have received proof and inspection cartouches, and a goodly number of the carbines I?ve seen come up for sale on the trapdoor site linked above have similar replacement stocks that have been on the gun since the Spanish-American War.
I think the J C stands for Jeneral Custer
If we could get Mr. Hosmer to chime in here he has the serial # records and next to Al is most knowledgeable on these trapdoors
The barrel was definitely replaced as it should not have the vp proof marks. Breech block may have been replaced also with a correct one of that period. Can you remove the butt plate to check if there is a hole in buttstock? The stock looks like it was possibly sanded and refinished at one point in time. I have seen rifles and carbines with the JC markings behind the trigger bar, It is the inspectors initials and does not stand for General Custer which would be G C :). The crown also looks a bit thick and front sight looks a bit off but could just be the pictures.
Shrapnel
05-22-2021, 01:08
Here is a picture of the stock with the buttplate removed. I'm not sure you could get a rod in that hole...
https://i.imgur.com/yubavJx.jpg
Here is a picture of the stock with the buttplate removed. I'm not sure you could get a rod in that hole...
https://i.imgur.com/yubavJx.jpg
Three piece rod plus a headless shell extractor will slip right in.
Shrapnel
05-23-2021, 07:04
Three piece rod plus a headless shell extractor will slip right in.
Slip right in to what?
https://i.imgur.com/cewOsdE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BApgOsP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PBU6kdj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0Nt8Wn1.jpg
Dick Hosmer
05-23-2021, 08:22
WONDERFUL pictures - far superior to what we are usually asked to work from. Not a well-populated range for carbines, but 10398, 10445, and 10840 have been recorded. Stock and barrel have been replaced - the stock, and furniture, date to 1877 or later, and barrel proofs started around 43000. Of great interest would be whether or not there is a trap in the butt. If there is not, you have a very rare stock. If there is, one must SERIOUSLY question why the plain butt-plate, as that might indicate an intent to deceive. I have to say that the front sight base appears to have sharper than normal corners, and at least appears to be a trifle too tall? The blade should be steel, not brass. But, all-in-all, a very nice-looking gun. Enjoy it!
Shrapnel
05-23-2021, 10:20
WONDERFUL pictures - far superior to what we are usually asked to work from. Not a well-populated range for carbines, but 10398, 10445, and 10840 have been recorded. Stock and barrel have been replaced - the stock, and furniture, date to 1877 or later, and barrel proofs started around 43000. Of great interest would be whether or not there is a trap in the butt. If there is not, you have a very rare stock. If there is, one must SERIOUSLY question why the plain butt-plate, as that might indicate an intent to deceive. I have to say that the front sight base appears to have sharper than normal corners, and at least appears to be a trifle too tall? The blade should be steel, not brass. But, all-in-all, a very nice-looking gun. Enjoy it!
Thanks for your information. As far as the holes in the butt stock for a cleaning rod goes, I took those pictures showing the cleaning rod bottomed out in the holes. This picture illustrates how that no cleaning rod would fit in this stock, even with the later buttplate that was designed for a cleaning rod...
https://i.imgur.com/DL4GbhC.jpg
That is not the correct cleaning rod for that rifle, even though it may work on getting it clean don't mean it was made for the above rifle.
Shrapnel
05-23-2021, 11:22
That is not the correct cleaning rod for that rifle, even though it may work on getting it clean don't mean it was made for the above rifle.
Correct or not, it would take a 20 piece rod to fit in the shallow holes that are in the butt stock and I know that isn?t right.
The correct cleaning rod when all three rods are attached 22" the same length as the barrel. So each rod is a little over 7". The rod you need was specifically made at the Springfield armory for the Springfield trapdoor carbine. They are all identical. And then there is the one piece rod made specifically for the longer full length trapdoor rifle 32".
Shrapnel
05-23-2021, 12:03
The correct cleaning rod when all three rods are attached 22" the same length as the barrel. So each rod is a little over 7". The rod you need was specifically made at the Springfield armory for the Springfield trapdoor carbine. They are all identical. And then there is the one piece rod made specifically for the longer full length trapdoor rifle 32".
Take another look, there is no way a 7 inch rod would fit in those holes!
Dick Hosmer
05-23-2021, 12:15
I'm now thinking a stock (even possibly a repro) which was never fully machined. It's a puzzle for sure. Tip-off? The wood milling looks "fresh", not almost 150 years old.
Shrapnel
05-23-2021, 01:18
The protection of a butt plate or heel cap as in this case with a shotgun made in 1867, you can see how fresh it can look over 150 years later. It still remains puzzling as to why the holes would be so shallow. Also the JC marks on the trapdoor would indicate it wasn't a late reproduction...
https://i.imgur.com/Td3WXbM.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qLLOsIi.jpg
Dick Hosmer
05-23-2021, 04:35
Granted (gorgeous wood!) but that carbine stock inletting just doesn't smell right! The holes should be "about" 7" deep, and the center one should be over-bored for "about" 3.5" so as to allow the 1875 Tegethoff 4-finger HSE to sit around the center rod. I just do not believe that SA did what you have.
Dick what does your book say about the serial number if anything as it is a real early number?
Jim O
4925749258
Perhaps the rods you have are a wider diameter than the originals.
Shrapnel
05-24-2021, 07:21
4925749258
Perhaps the rods you have are a wider diameter than the originals.
I don't know how I can make it more clear:
The holes are not deep enough!
https://i.imgur.com/DL4GbhC.jpg
Dick Hosmer
05-24-2021, 08:52
Dick what does your book say about the serial number if anything as it is a real early number?
Jim O
Refer post #16. Data VERY scarce in that range. That stock is NOT right - SOMEONE, be it SA or Bubba, did not - for some reason, finish what they started. The OP has been quite clear, the holes are just not deep enough, has nothing to do with rod thickness or type.
If it were mine, I'd deepen the holes to the proper depth and get a trap buttplate (early keyhole type) a set of rods , 1875 HSE, and call it good. It would then be completely believable, and a nice-looking representation of a restocked early carbine.
I still don't like the front sight/muzzle - the crown doesn't look bad (and clearly isn't just a whacked rifle) but a little voice is calling me. The sight base has issues (to my eyes) and that brass blade was NOT put there by SA, so, what's the (real) story? If I wanted to get REALLY picky, I'd note that the block and receiver patina do not match, and the rear sight screws look like they MAY be reused and cleaned up as edges are marred - just a bit. The band should have the small "U" at that s/n. The hammer screw is from a .50-70. But, where do you stop? After 150 years DAMN few guns (if ANY) are pure virgins!
Shrapnel
05-24-2021, 12:30
Refer post #16. Data VERY scarce in that range. That stock is NOT right - SOMEONE, be it SA or Bubba, did not - for some reason, finish what they started. The OP has been quite clear, the holes are just not deep enough, has nothing to do with rod thickness or type.
If it were mine, I'd deepen the holes to the proper depth and get a trap buttplate (early keyhole type) a set of rods , 1875 HSE, and call it good. It would then be completely believable, and a nice-looking representation of a restocked early carbine.
I still don't like the front sight/muzzle - the crown doesn't look bad (and clearly isn't just a whacked rifle) but a little voice is calling me. The sight base has issues (to my eyes) and that brass blade was NOT put there by SA, so, what's the (real) story? If I wanted to get REALLY picky, I'd note that the block and receiver patina do not match, and the rear sight screws look like they MAY be reused and cleaned up as edges are marred - just a bit. The band should have the small "U" at that s/n. The hammer screw is from a .50-70. But, where do you stop? After 150 years DAMN few guns (if ANY) are pure virgins!
Thanks for the assistance, but what do you make of the JC stamp? It was noted earlier that the JC stamp was on other carbine stocks.
Dick Hosmer
05-24-2021, 04:41
Small letters in that area are usually from a sub-inspector or a foreman in the stocking shop. "RDR" is more frequently seen than "JC". It's a carbine stock as far as I can see, but one that apparently wasn't finished for some reason. Maybe it slipped in the jig, or they hit a knot. You'd have to compare the inletting VERY carefully with a genuine stock to see if you can spot some reason as to why they stopped. Or, are we missing something at the front end? Pull the trigger guard - CAREFULLY - and see if there is a cleanout hole immediately **AHEAD of the front screw. This would only apply to a post-1879 stock, but if it is there, we are looking at a WHOLE different can of worms. You said you got a really good deal? Would you care to share how much it was? Maybe you are still OK no matter what. It's a handsome piece - would hate to find out it isn't real.
I've gotta say that is a really funky finish on the wood at post #27; almost looks like it was applied with a brush - there's little "depth" to it. Hate to keep picking nits, but there is a story there and I'm not sure that we are yet at the final chapter.
Shrapnel
05-25-2021, 06:33
Pull the trigger guard - CAREFULLY - and see if there is a cleanout hole immediately **AHEAD of the front screw. This would only apply to a post-1879 stock, but if it is there, we are looking at a WHOLE different can of worms. You said you got a really good deal? Would you care to share how much it was? Maybe you are still OK no matter what. It's a handsome piece - would hate to find out it isn't real.
No cleanout hole. I got it for $2500.00, I am confident that is a safe price for this gun...
Dick Hosmer
05-25-2021, 06:59
Wohh! - I was hoping, for your sake, that it was less. I think that's about borderline for an 'updated' gun with obvious questions. Now, if it had the original long-wrist stock and no proofs on the barrel, it WOULD have been a steal. Hope things work out for you.
In regards to post #28 You are exactly correct, But we have to go by what the owner of rifle says since it is in his hands and he could be correct about not being fully drilled for the rods. He seems very sure of it regardless of what everyone else says here. Hope he has fun with new rifle looks really nice.
John Knight
06-30-2021, 01:20
The picture posted on 5/22/21 of Y P Eagle head then final proof p appears on the barrel. Upon careful examination it appears to be an inverted c. SA for condemned. If so, the work was not done at SA.
Dick Hosmer
07-06-2021, 05:58
Hey, the gun's NOT RIGHT for the serial number, for several reasons, but WHY it isn't, or at least why the stock isn't, has not yet been discovered/disclosed. The rod hole PATTERN looks OK, it is the depth that is at issue. Why did they stop? DID they stop? Maybe the holes are just packed full of crud? I'd get a long-shank drill, put it in an old-fashioned hand-cranked brace (NOT a high-speed cordless drill) and have a go at them. Should soon be able to tell if you are in solid walnut or crud. Just for grins, since I don't think it's been mentioned - what IS the muzzle diameter? The more I look the more I think the barrel does look a trifle fat - but it could just be my eyes.
Hope this helps, if you put a dime over the muzzle it should be about the same dia for as a carbine barrel, if the muzzle dia is larger then the dime, it's a cut down rifle bbl, Ray
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