Why was the Springfield 1903 30-06 made to cock on opening ? ...

[dogtag]

All the other battle rifles of the period cocked on closing.
I've never been able to figure out any advantage, not that I've
really given it that much thought. Easier to close the bolt, but
that's not such a big deal whereas the chance of it snapping shut
while out of the rifle would seem to be a drawback, especially
in war time. Hopefully it wasn't merely to be different. Was it
a way to not pay Mauser royalties which they never did.
I'm all ears.

[pcox]

Does the Mauser cock on opening?

[Hal O'Peridol]

The Model 98 does. Earlier models were cock on close.

[EO1]

Because the Krag was CoO. Same for the magazine cutoff, cocking knob, and 2 piece firing pin.

[JimF]

Does the Mauser cock on opening?

Actually, the M98 Mauser only cocks HALFWAY on opening . . . .
The other half when closing.

[Merc]

According to this, the Feds did pay Mauser royalties.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/tempworkingdirectory/Scan_Doc0016.pdf

[Art]

Because the Krag was CoO. Same for the magazine cutoff, cocking knob, and 2 piece firing pin.

Correct. Add to that the cone shaped breach and the safety lug. The M1903 is actually a Mauser Model 95 / Krag-Jorgensen hybrid.

[Art]

According to this, the Feds did pay Mauser royalties.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/tempworkingdirectory/Scan_Doc0016.pdf

Yep, and we took it all back, plus some as war reparations after WW I.

- - - Updated - - -


Actually, the M98 Mauser only cocks HALFWAY on opening . . . .
The other half when closing.

How does that work, I've sent my share of rounds down range on Model 98 style Mausers and feel no resistance at all on the bolt's closing stroke. Ezell's "Small Arms of the World" indicates the striker of the Model 98 is cocked on the opening stroke of the bolt only. So let me know.

[JimF]

. . . .How does that work, I've sent my share of rounds down range on Model 98 style Mausers and feel no resistance at all on the bolt's closing stroke. Ezell's "Small Arms of the World" indicates the striker of the Model 98 is cocked on the opening stroke of the bolt only. So let me know.

Art . . .It?s good you have a M98 . . . .

Carefully look at the cocking piece as you open and close the bolt.

Notice how much it protrudes out the back of the sleeve when bolt handle is raised . .

Now, observe how much MORE it protrudes when the handle is lowered to the locked position.

See the difference?

[Art]

Art . . .It?s good you have a M98 . . . .

Carefully look at the cocking piece as you open and close the bolt.

Notice how much it protrudes out the back of the sleeve when bolt handle is raised . .

Now, observe how much MORE it protrudes when the handle is lowered to the locked position.

See the difference?

Yup. However the cocking motion (nitpicking here) is not completed on the closing stroke but on the locking motion when the bolt handle is turned down.

[JimF]

Yes . . . You are correct!

[Art]

An actual in depth discussion of vintage milsurp rifles. Just like old times :icon_salut:.

[EO1]

Correct. Add to that the cone shaped breach and the safety lug. The M1903 is actually a Mauser Model 95 / Krag-Jorgensen hybrid.

This ^^
During the development of what was to become the 1903, the first receivers had a split rear bridge ala Krag.

[barretcreek]

Probably because American doctrine was built on individual aimed fire, whereas the British used volley fire, which cock on closing enhances. Cock on opening might make for more accuracy.

[Art]

Probably because American doctrine was built on individual aimed fire, whereas the British used volley fire, which cock on closing enhances. Cock on opening might make for more accuracy.

This is a misconception. After the Boer war the Brits completely overhauled their rifle doctrine. There are some excellent episodes on "British Muzzleloaders" on you tube relating to this. The Brits didn't do much bullseye shooting, most qualification was on various silouette targets at ranges out to 500 yards. There was some emphasis on timed aimed fire but true volley fire was not British doctrine after 1900, definitely after 1909. British soldiers were trained to engage individual targets and put them down, just like we were; though the methods for getting there varied.

Interestingly the last "great power" to actually use volley fire was Russia, whose M1891 Mosin-Nagant rifle cocked on opening.

This part on the series about WW I British rifle training concentrates on the most misunderstood phase of all, the "Mad Minute." This is straight from the training manuals and course of fire used by the Brit soldier of WWI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLT-5pDrKk

[dogtag]

Interesting stuff, but as yet nothing about the advantage of COO compared with COC.

And here's another question: Why was a third locking lug needed when as far
as I know the up front lugs had never failed ?

Was the 03 that much more accurate ? Well maybe. remember the old adage:
Lee Enfield - best battle rifle.
Mauser - best hunting rifle.
1903 - the best target rifle

[Johnny P]

The K98k and the 1903 Springfield both cock on opening. The firing pin doesn't move as the bolt handle is turned down, but the bolt sleeve moves forward as the bolt handle is turned down, turning the locking lugs into the receiver.
The resistance on opening the bolt handle on either rifle is the cocking motion.

[Roadkingtrax]

Cock on close is simply the more antiquated, and cheaper of the two to produce. COO is stronger, safer, and the mechanical action of the controlled feed and rotating bolt aids in the feeding of rounds. The third lug was never necessary, but an added safety feature of the 1903/Mauser design. COO uses a heavier spring, which favors mechanical advantages, COC uses a lighter spring.

England loves its tradition, so why change what was working.

[lyman]

This is a misconception. After the Boer war the Brits completely overhauled their rifle doctrine. There are some excellent episodes on "British Muzzleloaders" on you tube relating to this. The Brits didn't do much bullseye shooting, most qualification was on various silouette targets at ranges out to 500 yards. There was some emphasis on timed aimed fire but true volley fire was not British doctrine after 1900, definitely after 1909. British soldiers were trained to engage individual targets and put them down, just like we were; though the methods for getting there varied.

Interestingly the last "great power" to actually use volley fire was Russia, whose M1891 Mosin-Nagant rifle cocked on opening.

This part on the series about WW I British rifle training concentrates on the most misunderstood phase of all, the "Mad Minute." This is straight from the training manuals and course of fire used by the Brit soldier of WWI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLT-5pDrKk


British Muzzleloading is a great youtube channel
Paper Cartridges is another

[blackhawknj]

I wonder if anyone actually paid attention at the time. I have a Winchester M-69, it cocks on closing, it was redesign to cock on opening and redesign acted the M-69A, an economy move no doubt.