.30-06 info

[milboltnut]

Is .004 HS too much in my M70 ? I start with 2.046 and have to size to 2.042. Funny the NG gauge is 2.046 and doesn't come close to the bolt closing and the go gauge is 2.042 which the bolt has very slight resistance on closing.

Is the 06 hard to deal with HS wise ?

[Parashooter]

Quiz -
50107

Answer -
50108

"Is .004 HS too much in my M70 ?" Hard to answer if you really mean "HeadSpace, but .004" end-play is no problem

[bruce]

Ammunition has to be produced to fit the smaller end of commercial chambers. Chambers have to be cut by commercial manufacturers to accommodate rounds within the range of allowable tolerances. No commercial round will give a reliable gauge of head space. Only depend on quality head space gauges for such decisions. If the bolt will close on the go-gauge ... fine! If the bolt will close on the no-go gauge ... not good at all! Remove the rifle from service until a qualified gun smith can correct the head space. Sincerely. bruce.

[milboltnut]

Ammunition has to be produced to fit the smaller end of commercial chambers. Chambers have to be cut by commercial manufacturers to accommodate rounds within the range of allowable tolerances. No commercial round will give a reliable gauge of head space. Only depend on quality head space gauges for such decisions. If the bolt will close on the go-gauge ... fine! If the bolt will close on the no-go gauge ... not good at all! Remove the rifle from service until a qualified gun smith can correct the head space. Sincerely. bruce.

I already know that bro, but thanks!

[milboltnut]

Found this explanation on another forum

On a new chamber the difference between is measured with Go and No Go gauges. The difference between these two gauges is generally accepted to be .004" from min to max.

I measured the high and low step on my case head space gauge and there's .004 difference, big surprise huh !

Also I would say chamber concentric to the bore is important, the case being non-linear shoulder angle can create a problem chamber problem.

[fguffey]

Is .004 HS too much in my M70 ?

No, .004" is not enough but if we are talking about clearance? .004" clearance is perfect. I have a M1917 with a chamber that is long; the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject length gage. That means nothing to most but when I fire a minimum length case in the field gage length +.002" chamber I have .016" clearance. I do not wonder what happened to all of the ammo fired in my rifle before I measured the length of the chamber.

And then I ask about a 30/06 chamber that .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber; is the chamber in my M1917 too long?

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

Definitely dizzy after your post Guffey. Max SAMMI is 2.058 and minimum is 2.048. Explain clearance verses HS. And did you do a chamber cast to know the length of your 1917 ?

[fguffey]

Milboltnut, forgive, I do not normally check to determine who is active on a thread, hello.

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

HEADSPACE The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.


HEAD CLEARANCE The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

How do you know the latter ?

[lyman]

guffey is a bit hard to read and understand sometimes, but once you learn his style, he is usually correct on headspace,

I think he sees it from another angle so to speak,



meanwhile, re the .04

USGI gauges are 1.940, 1.946, and field is 1.950


one a bolt gun, simply measure our fired cases, and throat, and adjust your dies to load to fit,

[fguffey]

Explain clearance verses HS. And did you do a chamber cast to know the length of your 1917?

You ask this question of one of only two reloaders that can measure a chamber for head space/length of a chamber, thank you.

No, for me it was easier to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. The 280 Remington case is .051" longer than the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the case head. When it comes to forming cases I cannot miss with .051". long story to make you dizzy, when measuring long chamber, I use a forming die with a feeler gage to adjust the die off of the deck of the shell holder. After forming/sizing I measure the length of the case from the datum (.375") to the case head for final adjustment.

After I make final adjustments, I adjust the die to .014"off the deck of the shell holder, the .002" gives me .002" clearance on my newly formed/sized cases.

F. Guffey

The length of my chambers is measured in thousandths.

Component manufactures do not manufacture cases to reloaders that know what they are doing, if they did, they would add a few thousandths to the case between the datum/shoulder to the case head.

[milboltnut]

that's what I did...but am getting caught up in .001 to .002 bump, but a guy told me that the 06 has issues with the shoulder verses the improved shoulder.

- - - Updated - - -


You ask this question of one of only two reloaders that can measure a chamber for head space/length of a chamber, thank you.

No, for me it was easier to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. The 280 Remington case is .051" longer than the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the case head. When it comes to forming cases I cannot miss with .051". long story to make you dizzy, when measuring long chamber, I use a forming die with a feeler gage to adjust the die off of the deck of the shell holder. After forming/sizing I measure the length of the case from the datum (.375") to the case head for final adjustment.

After I make final adjustments, I adjust the die to .014"off the deck of the shell holder, the .002" gives me .002" clearance on my newly formed/sized cases.

F. Guffey

The length of my chambers is measured in thousandths.

Component manufactures do not manufacture cases to reloaders that know what they are doing, if they did, they would add a few thousandths to the case between the datum/shoulder to the case head.

So do I. I don't think you realize you are setting the shoulder back :eusa_liar::sign13:

ANd yeah you continue to make me dizzy and your mod says you do to.

[fguffey]

Head space and clearance: For years reloaders claimed the case had head space, my cases have a length, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.

I measure the length of my cases from the datum to the case head, If I want to know the clearance between the bolt face and case head I have to have a way to measure the length of the chamber (head space).

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

Head space and clearance: For years reloaders claimed the case had head space, my cases have a length, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case.

I measure the length of my cases from the datum to the case head, If I want to know the clearance between the bolt face and case head I have to have a way to measure the length of the chamber (head space).

F. Guffey

And what way is that ?

[fguffey]

that's what I did...but am getting caught up in .001 to .002 bump, but a guy told me that the 06 has issues with the shoulder verses the improved shoulder.

There is the chamber shoulder and there is the case shoulder. And I have found it impossible to move a shoulder back, I cannot move the shoulder of a case back and I cannot bump it back.

For years reloaders have talked about the dreaded donut and then they claim they "move the shoulder back", if they could move the shoulder back, they could eliminate the dreaded donut.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

There is the chamber shoulder and there is the case shoulder. And I have found it impossible to move a shoulder back, I cannot move the shoulder of a case back and I cannot bump it back.

For years reloaders have talked about the dreaded donut and then they claim they "move the shoulder back", if they could move the shoulder back, they could eliminate the dreaded donut.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey

If you can not move the shoulder back then why does a gauge tell me I am moving it back ?

[lyman]

that's what I did...but am getting caught up in .001 to .002 bump, but a guy told me that the 06 has issues with the shoulder verses the improved shoulder.

- - - Updated - - -



So do I.

ANd yeah you continue to make me dizzy and your mod says you do to.



not sure on this,

The Mod, (of the forum you are a member off) said you will get used to it,



or not

[milboltnut]

if I do get used to it, I won't be dizzy, if I don't then I won't be. Is that better ? :icon_salut:

[milboltnut]

There is the chamber shoulder and there is the case shoulder. And I have found it impossible to move a shoulder back, I cannot move the shoulder of a case back and I cannot bump it back.

For years reloaders have talked about the dreaded donut and then they claim they "move the shoulder back", if they could move the shoulder back, they could eliminate the dreaded donut.



F. Guffey

According to you, you can't bump a shoulder, so how would you know a donut would be eliminated if they could bump a shoulder back? Am I making you dizzy ?

[lyman]

if I do get used to it, I won't be dizzy, if I don't then I won't be. Is that better ? :icon_salut:

:1948:

[fguffey]

If you cannot move the shoulder back then why does a gauge tell me I am moving it back?

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

I said some thing.... Again.....a gauge, told me that I am moving the shoulder back, not someone.

I think I rather not stay in this rabbit hole :wave: I think you are really are missing it but that's ok. When you size an 06 to an 8mm, you still have to size the new case to your chamber after you fire form it. Unless after you fire form it, you only neck size and never have to move the shoulder back to chamber it??? Buy a case gauge and see the body portion is loose, and it only measures the shoulder to head and the length of the case. I hope that helps.

[fguffey]

I said some thing.... Again.....a gauge, told me that I am moving the shoulder back, not someone.

I understand, you insist you can move the shoulder back, I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back. You cannot tell me how you are able to move the shoulder back. The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

gauge, told me I make gages, when measuring the length of a case from the datum to the case head I use a datum of .375" with a length/height gage. I have Wilson case gages with a straight edge and a feeler gage.

Back to donuts, A reloader cannot form donuts by moving the shoulder back meaning a reloader does not know how donuts are formed.


I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

Forgive, few reloaders can say "I do not know" most just get snarky, it takes little to no effort to get someone to agree with you.

[milboltnut]

Guffey


I understand, you insist you can move the shoulder back, I say it is impossible to move the shoulder back. You cannot tell me how you are able to move the shoulder back. The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

You can't prove it that it can't, I can prove it with a gauge. You can't prove your heart beats unless you can hear it or feel it beat. You need your ear, to hear it beat. You need assistance from an apparatus to aid you to tell it is active. Yeah it's a simple concept and sorry I have to tell you this that you are basing your impossibility on, well nothing.


After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

That means absolutely nothing. Yeah and.... ?


The shoulder you finish with is not the same shoulder you started with.

And.... that's like saying what in the world does that have to do with a case shoulder that needs to chamber ? Die companies cut dies to maximum headpspace. I had a die that was short, and Lee cut the base to maximum HS. Follow ? and HS is base to datum, the datum is somewhere in the middle of the shoulder........And what does a FL sizing die do ?

And this is the end of this debate

[milboltnut]

Reloaders assume they are moving the shoulder back when they are sizing a case and then someone that has never put any thought into what was happing to the case when sizing told them they were moving the shoulder back.

Again, I form 30/06 cases to 8mm57 cases. There is .127" difference in the length of an 8mm57 case and a 30/06 case. It means nothing to those that never put any thought into it, but I did not move the shoulder back .127". The shoulder I formed on the 8mm57 is not the same shoulder I started with on the 30/06 case. No one has ever asked, "If the shoulder does not move back. where does it go? The 30/06 neck becomes part of the 8mm57 shoulder and part of the 30/06 shoulder becomes part 8mm57 case body. SO, when forming and or sizing the shoulder of the case moves forward and if the case last a long time all of that brass moving forward must be trimmed.

I took two 8x06 rifles to the rang, I fired 8mm57 ammo in both of the rifles. A reminder, there is .127" difference in length between the 8mm57 round and the 30/06 round between the datum to the case and head. After firing I found the shoulder of the 8mm57 had become part of the case body and the neck almost disappeared. I could ask, what does that mean?

F. Guffey

The case on the left is maximum HS... the case on the right is a new factory case. You don't have to ask you can see where the shoulders go.... when sized,It goes BACK...... and basically flows forward which is the old adage, "for every action there's a reaction"..... well the forward movement is the "action"
50120 In reality the shoulder becomes part of the neck.

[fguffey]

I think it would be best that whatever way you get it done, is fine by me, but don't expect me to agree with you every time and doesn't mean you are always right. So in the future I suggest you keep your words short, ok ? If you don't mind.

Ralph



I thought you felt offended, so I asked you to "forgive" twice and then you went to casting a chamber, at that time I said, "thank you". I really thought you had something going for you. This is not all about you.

The case on the left is maximum HS... the case on the right is a new factory case. You don't have to ask you can see where the shoulders go.... when sized,It goes BACK...... and basically flows forward which is the old adage, "for every action there's a reaction"..... well the forward movement is the "action"

The case does not have headspace. The datum is round because that is the only way a reloader/machinist can determine how far the datum is form the case head. And then there is the "because", the shoulder has a taper, it has an apex like a traffic cone. I know, I am wasting your time, please forgive.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

The case does not have headspace.

You are making this stuff up again. The shoulder of the case cannot move back when sized with a die that has full case body support. A die that does not have case body support is a seating die. A die manufacturer/designer worked all of this out before there was a reloading forum. They suggested crimping the neck while seating a bullet is a bad habit. Dillon started making dies, they made a die for seating the bullet and a die for crimping.

F. Guffey

[milboltnut]

yes your are wasting my time, and countless others who read your posts. You are extremely confused when it comes to handloading 101.


The case does not have headspace

It does, and I said you size the case to the proper headspace to the chamber and you are missing the simple concept here.. I'm wondering why trimming is needed and where the brass comes from? Hmmmm. The neck doesn't thin out, so where does it come from? Hmmmm. Couldn't imagine.:eusa_silenced:I don't have to trim, and only Partial FL size. Nothing new here. Making stuff up ?? The pic I posted is worth a thousand words.

[lyman]

I think it is best to end this one,

Mr Guffey, please polish up your discourse, you may get better traction with some of us who reload

[lyman]

re opened by request,


please play nice,

if not, i'll start infracting,,,

[lyman]

yes your are wasting my time, and countless others who read your posts. You are extremely confused when it comes to handloading 101.



It does, and I said you size the case to the proper headspace to the chamber and you are missing the simple concept here.. I'm wondering why trimming is needed and where the brass comes from? Hmmmm. The neck doesn't thin out, so where does it come from? Hmmmm. Couldn't imagine.:eusa_silenced:I don't have to trim, and only Partial FL size. Nothing new here. Making stuff up ?? The pic I posted is worth a thousand words.



the case Does Not have headspace, the case, or cartridge, is loaded (resized etc) to fit into the chamber, which has a headspace measurement,

one thing yall are forgetting is chambers wear, chambers have been cut oversized, long, short etc, and you can move shoulder etc by using different dies to fit, if needed,
mostly thru fire forming and then either neck sizing vs FL,

you can have dies made to fit your specific chamber if needed,

but none of that is headspace,


as far as trimming, brass flows, the excess does not necessarily come from the shoulder,
basic reloading 101 tells you to check for a ring at the base of a cartridge, that ring is where the stretch happens, and typically where the brass is worked a bit more then the rest when reloaded,





note,, mountains are being made here out of mole hills, and I get the impression I'll be locking this soon

- - - Updated - - -


You are making this stuff up again. The shoulder of the case cannot move back when sized with a die that has full case body support. A die that does not have case body support is a seating die. A die manufacturer/designer worked all of this out before there was a reloading forum. They suggested crimping the neck while seating a bullet is a bad habit. Dillon started making dies, they made a die for seating the bullet and a die for crimping.

F. Guffey

Guffy,

Dillon was late to the Reloading party, separate crimp dies have been around a lot longer,

[milboltnut]

I don't get any stretching at the head considering I only bump a few of thousands and the case length stays put, UNLESS I oversize, then the length changes. Splitting hairs about case HS, considering when you push back a shoulder in one direction the necks goes the other direction. I understand sizing brass to fit the chamber, but cases can be described as head spaced, that's what case gauge is for to measure case HS.

Never heard of chamber wear... other than throat erosion which isn't in the equation here Lyman. Increased HS happens from bolt locking lugs which a bit softer than receiver recesses.

If you wanna lock this thread be my guest, as far as I'm concerned this information really isn't necessary to improve my loading skills. But be a man , and accept the fact, that you don't have all the answers.

[lyman]

I don't get any stretching at the head considering I only bump a few of thousands and the case length stays put, UNLESS I oversize, then the length changes. Splitting hairs about case HS, considering when you push back a shoulder in one direction the necks goes the other direction. I understand sizing brass to fit the chamber, but cases can be described as head spaced, that's what case gauge is for to measure case HS.

Never heard of chamber wear... other than throat erosion which isn't in the equation here Lyman. Increased HS happens from bolt locking lugs which a bit softer than receiver recesses.

If you wanna lock this thread be my guest, as far as I'm concerned this information really isn't necessary to improve my loading skills. But be a man , and accept the fact, that you don't have all the answers.

I never claimed to have all the answers, but have been reloading for 30+ yrs, and reloading 30.06 the entire time,

you want to confuse a few terms, but that is ok if you are doing it?

but not others?


re the being a man, please read your own sig line,,