Trapdoor Carbine With Star Marked Receiver

[lpcullen]

Greetings, This is my first gun post here on jouster. I recently purchased what I believe to be a rough but original TD carbine. The serial number is 187970.
Sadly it has lived a hard life. The hammer has been trimmed, the M90 barrel band has been ground down and the bore has been crudely reamed out. It also has a homemade front sight blade (looks like they used a penny) and the Buffington rear sight slide lock has been replaced by a filed down screw. Amazingly the threads in the sight are not damaged. The stock is also cracked and has been glued long ago.

From my research on the internet the serial number dates it to 1882 (which matches the cartouche on the stock) and the star indicates it was one of the carbines assembled with a new receiver, barrel and stock mated to the reclaimed parts of older weapons below #50,000 for the militia/national guard. The rear sight is C marked and the butt plate has the door for the cleaning rods. It is missing the saddle ring but has the bar.

I just wanted to see if I was correct about it being an original carbine and if it possibly shows up in SRS. I'm planning on getting it back to shooting shape. Look forward to your replies and thanks for having me here.

[lpcullen]

I replaced the hammer today with one I got from Al Frasca. It looked more brown on his website but at least it's original. I believe it is a later model than what it had originally. More of a bevel at the bottom of the hammer face. I also have a rear sight slide lock and M90 barrel band on the way. Now just to get it to Bob Hoyt and have the barrel relined and it should be a shooter. I'm sure I will have more money than it's worth tied up in it before it's all said and done but I'm having fun trying to bring it back to life. It will still be a beater but at least it will be a shootable beater. These don't pop up around here that often.

[mr.j]

I believe the hammer installed on there is original, just had the top ground down for what ever reason my guess to avoid snagging. picture of muzzle would help but all looks original from pictures provided just need the ring, and your carbine most likely has the normal Buffington sight barrel band without the protector. the one with sight guard was made in the 1890s but early carbines have had them updated with them. aA picture of rear sight also will help.

[lpcullen]

Here are some pics. They aren't very good. I couldn't get the camera to focus well on the sight. It is C marked in the right corner. I have a Buffington barrel band without the protector coming along with the M90 so I have options. Thanks for your reply mr. j. I appreciate it.

[mr.j]

Looks good to me. i would still hold on to the hammer since i strongly believe it was originally to the rifle and put on there when first assembled at SA. Yes the band was ground down.

[lpcullen]

That hammer was so hard to get off the tumbler I think it has been on there since put on by Springfield Armory! I will hold on to it. I think it is an early one.

[Carlsr]

I also have a stared carbine with an 1881 cartouche which matches serial number. It was updated for the SAW and has the Buffington rear sight with the 1890 rear sight protector. The carbine has a NJ cartouche on the stock and also NJ mark on the barrel. I purchased it on GB a couple years ago. It was covered in paint and all metal parts were covered in some type of grime. I did not know at time of purchase that it was a stared carbine. I was able to remove all paint along with the grime and the carbine turned out to be really nice. The bore is shiny along with some pitting at the muzzle but shoots rather accurate. With a little elbow grease I think my 1000.00 investment was well worth it.
I was also going to send it to Bob Hoyt to recline the barrel but he kinda talked me out of it. Since the pitting is limited and shoots well I should just leave it be.
Good luck repairing yours and giving it a new life!

[lpcullen]

Sounds like you got a winner there Carl. Got any pics? I'd like to see it.

[Dick Hosmer]

I would never reline the barrel of ANY original carbine until I'd used up the last remaining POS chop-job, of which there are hundreds, if not thousands, out there.

[lpcullen]

Dick, Please expound on this if you would. So relining would hurt the value/historical integrity of the carbine not increase it? I've got other TD rifles to shoot so not shooting this one wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. Plus it would save me some money and a very long wait time. Should I have not replaced the hammer either? I appreciate your input and look forward to hearing back from you.

[Dick Hosmer]

Probably I should start by saying that I am a purist collector, and my views certainly do not align with everyone. To me, there is a very narrow window of what should be done, or not done, to an antique arm. Probably the cardinal rule is to do NOTHING irreversible. Second would be no refinishing, especially done by an amateur where the results could easily detract from, not enhance, the piece. In most cases, a light going-over with solvent and fine steel or brass wool for the metal, and a good rubdown with lemon oil or boiled linseed oil for the wood is all you want to do to a piece which you have been lucky enough to receive un-molested. If it has already been screwed over, the 'rules' are less rigid and more up to the individual. There is nothing wrong with replacing an entire part with one of MATCHING patina, color and wear, AND proper period, but tread carefully because the wrong part - such as a early hammer on a late gun - will stick out like a sore thumb. Yes, SA did upgrade parts but usually only sights. Interior lock parts, of course, are fair game to fix, but don't use an early coarse sear with a later three-notch tumbler or vice versa.

Relining would be fine for a cut-down rifle barrel, but I would not do it to an original carbine barrel. They may not be "rare" but they don't grow on trees, either. Two things to stay away from are Naval Jelly and ANY sort of power tool(s). If a prospective purchase bothers you to the point where you think use of such would help, lay it back down and save your money for a better specimen. We are only caretakers, and future generations will thank us for showing some restraint.

[Fred]

Absolutely agree with everything Dick said.
Relining a barrel will always devalue a collector firearm. If anyone tells you that it’s an OK thing to have done to a collectible carbine, disregard any advise that they have about antique firearms.
Refinishing an antique firearm will always devalue it.
You were correct in replacing the hammer. It was the correct type too.
Rear bands with the added hump on them were installed on carbines that were intended for use during the Spanish American War. If a carbine has such a rear band, don’t replace it with a barrel band that doesn’t have the hump and vice versa.

[lpcullen]

Thank you for your replies Gentlemen. I will heed your advise.

[Carlsr]

There is a photo in a thread titled Year of manufactured posted in 2019 with a photo. I need to take some better pictures but my photo skills need much improvement LOL!