View Full Version : A Few Thoughts on the British and German Rifles and Riflemen, WWII
In the past few years I've had some revelations on the tactical doctrines of the British and German infantry in WWII.
In WWI riflemen were primarily, well, riflemen. A Brit rifleman carried his ammo in easy to access pouches on his web gear and he had lots of them. The German was similar. This meant that the primary function of the rifleman in a tactical unit in both armies was the efficient use of the rifle.
The light and general purpose machine gun changed everything. In both armies the purpose of the rifleman was no longer primarily his rifle but supporting the squad automatic weapon. I often thought the big old pouches on the Pattern 37 web gear couldn't have been efficient for carrying clipped ammo. Well it wasn't. A Brit rifleman carried two loaded magazines for the Bren gun in one pouch and in the other one bandoleer of ammo and a couple of grenades. Loading from a bandoleer is a lot slower than loading from those quick opening pouches which deprived the No 4 rifle of one of its great advantages, rate of fire. In addition the poor Tommy might be required to start reloading magazines with clips from the bandoleer if the Bren started to run too low on ammo. That would give me a certain amount of ammo insecurity :( .
The NAZI soldier didn't see his rifle ammo supply diminished that much but every one of them was supposed to carry a can of ammo for the MG 34 or 42 whichever his squad had. That's a whopping 250 rounds :icon_e_surprised: . This was a heavier load than the Brit soldier carried but the German guns were a lot more ammo greedy. I think I'd use the option of draping the belts around my neck and shoulders as many NAZI soldiers are shown doing and a lot of GI's did in Vietnam. If I was in the Heer I'd definitely want my can used first.
We of course had a different doctrine but we had the Garand.
barretcreek
10-03-2022, 12:44
I've read the German after action report of the first engagement in 1914 stated they came under machine gun fire when it was actually from a rifle platoon.
Thank you.
From the movie Fury. This is quite an accurate image of a freshly re-fitted NAZI unit sometime from Mid 1944 to the end of the war on the march, though they'd probably be in "route column." Note the MG ammo cans being carried and the belts of MG ammo draped over the men. It's a heck of a load, but got to keep it coming to those MG 42s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y11R852RJZM
lost of panzerfaust in that column too,
Gent I know recently got a MG42, I sold him a modern Lafette mount (made by HK) that he put it on,
showed me a Video of it firing Friday PM, amazing MG it is, esp on that mount,
a 50 round belt (common length) went thru in in seconds,
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-22-1/CMH_Pub_104-22-1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjXoYiKmMX6AhX7GzQIHb5wAxIQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0YQYPyrKZWjSBTkvzMIz8h
If this link works it is to a downloadable PDF put out by the US army on German small unit tactics on the eastern front in WW2
Re: PDF SUTEF. Thank you very much for this link. Sincerely. bruce.
The Bren was incredibly accurate both in single and full auto.
I trained on one during basic. The magazine on top was a much
better idea than that of the BAR. Real easy to change as was the barrel.
Re: PDF SUTEF. Thank you very much for this link. Sincerely. bruce.
Thank you for testing it!
lost of panzerfaust in that column too,
Gent I know recently got a MG42, I sold him a modern Lafette mount (made by HK) that he put it on,
showed me a Video of it firing Friday PM, amazing MG it is, esp on that mount,
a 50 round belt (common length) went thru in in seconds,
It is still one of the most commonly used G.P. machine guns and is a standard weapon in active use, in one variation or another, with 20 countries. A few of which are:
Austria
Argentina
Germany
Greece
Latvia
Lithuania
Pakistan
Portugal
Togo
Turkey
There are quite a few countries such as Brazil and Canada who use it only on armored vehicles.
Hitler's buzz saw....truly one of histories great weapons
The MG-38 and 42 were truly remarkable designs that far outpaced allied equipment. ROF was high, perhaps higher than absolutely ideal. That being said, a heavier bolt cut ROF. Nothing could equal the ease of barrel changes, etc. Sincerely. bruce.
Vern Humphrey
10-04-2022, 02:43
The Bren was incredibly accurate both in single and full auto.
I trained on one during basic. The magazine on top was a much
better idea than that of the BAR. Real easy to change as was the barrel.
But only if you were right-handed, because the sights were offset to the left.
I used to have a Bren -- found it in a Brit dump at Siwa, Egypt in 1954. And all the ammo I could possibly use. Shame I couldn't bring it home.
But only if you were right-handed, because the sights were offset to the left.
I used to have a Bren -- found it in a Brit dump at Siwa, Egypt in 1954. And all the ammo I could possibly use. Shame I couldn't bring it home.
I'm sure a lefty would manage if it came to it. Like a Bonzaii charge
But only if you were right-handed, because the sights were offset to the left.
I used to have a Bren -- found it in a Brit dump at Siwa, Egypt in 1954. And all the ammo I could possibly use. Shame I couldn't bring it home.
back then it did not make a difference if you were Right or Left handed, the DI made sure you shot the rifle or MG correctly, regardless
Mark in Ottawa
10-04-2022, 08:20
The Bren was incredibly accurate both in single and full auto.
I trained on one during basic. The magazine on top was a much
better idea than that of the BAR. Real easy to change as was the barrel.
In this day and age, it may be hard to believe but when I was in high school in Toronto, we had a cadet corps that was affiliated with one of the local Militia (i.e. army reserve) units. Our school had a rifle range for .22s and about 30 functional Lee Enfields in .303. Even more interesting is that we had two Bren guns. At the age of 13, I could field strip and reassemble a Bren in the dark. A few years ago I was back for a school reunion and was telling the current principal about that time. The cadets, the rifles, the Brens and the rifle range were long gone and the principal had never heard about any of them.
Photo shows Belgian troops firing a Hotchkiss light machine gun in 191450855
In this day and age, it may be hard to believe but when I was in high school in Toronto, we had a cadet corps that was affiliated with one of the local Militia (i.e. army reserve) units. Our school had a rifle range for .22s and about 30 functional Lee Enfields in .303. Even more interesting is that we had two Bren guns. At the age of 13, I could field strip and reassemble a Bren in the dark. A few years ago I was back for a school reunion and was telling the current principal about that time. The cadets, the rifles, the Brens and the rifle range were long gone and the principal had never heard about any of them.
Riflery used to be a competitive activity in NYC schools, in fact into the 1960s you would see kids with their cased rifles on the subways. I have a friend who was on his high school rifle team in NYC back then who has confirmed this.
Several years ago he visited his Alma Mater in Brooklyn and mentioned this fact to the principal. The principal, a leftie, of course who wasn't around then denied it ever happened. My friend then took him down to what had been the range in the basement which is now a storage area, again the principal denied that there had ever been a shooting range there or that the school had ever had a rifle team. The old boy would have probably said the same thing if you showed him the rifle team pic in a year book.
Riflery used to be a competitive activity in NYC schools, in fact into the 1960s you would see kids with their cased rifles on the subways. I have a friend who was on his high school rifle team in NYC back then who has confirmed this.
Several years ago he visited his Alma Mater in Brooklyn and mentioned this fact to the principal. The principal, a leftie, of course who wasn't around then denied it ever happened. My friend then took him down to what had been the range in the basement which is now a storage area, again the principal denied that there had ever been a shooting range there or that the school had ever had a rifle team. The old boy would have probably said the same thing if you showed him the rifle team pic in a year book.
one of the guys I shot with, and bunked with at Perry, is from CT,
his is Distinguished, did that on a M14, and shot Small Bore in grade and high school, and often at the school
he would take his rifle home on the bus
barretcreek
10-06-2022, 05:19
Friend lived on 16th Street near Carter Baron. We'd take a D.C. Transit bus to 1600 Rhode Island but the NRA was sorta cool to us, even though we had JR membership.
HS had a half dozen M1922 and 52B.
Vern Humphrey
10-09-2022, 12:52
We (Robert Ray Petroleum where my Dad was general manager) had a helicopter company under contract when we were in Egypt (mid-'50s). One of the helicopter pilots spotted a BMW motorcycle abandoned along the German retreat route from El Alamein and picked it up. He brought it into camp lashed to the skids, and our camp mechanic got it running. It had a side car with an MG 34 mounted on it.
It was great fun, but we made the mistake of shooting the MG where the Egyptian Army mine disposal crew attached to our camp could hear it, and they confiscated it and cut it up with a torch.
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