View Full Version : 03A3 Service grades.
Pulled a couple of my Remington 03A3 Service grades out of the safe for a good cleaning and lubing in preparation for the upcoming season. Whatta Hobby!
5121451215
Fine looking rifles.
In my humble opinion the Model 1903A3 was the best of the Mauser System rifles. I know I'd get an argument from some folks who favor the Swedes but one way or another they are a top end rifle if you have to carry a bolt gun into combat.
Don't plan on carrying anything into combat ever again. Now , they are but toys for an old dinosaur.
Don't plan on carrying anything into combat ever again. Now , they are but toys for an old dinosaur.
Well that's obviously all very true for me as well. I have two kinds of firearms, recreational and serious. My serious guns for self defense are modern firearms. The recreational guns are "vintage" firearms. But the statement stands, if I had to use a Mauser type bolt action repeater in 1943-44, when the day of the bolt action repeater was almost done, and had a choice it would be an '03A3 for what I think are some pretty good reasons. Despite its faults, though, my first choice in a bolt action repeater would still be a No4 Lee Enfield.
Vern Humphrey
01-07-2023, 01:34
Well that's obviously all very true for me as well. I have two kinds of firearms, recreational and serious. My serious guns for self defense are modern firearms. The recreational guns are "vintage" firearms. But the statement stands, if I had to use a Mauser type bolt action repeater in 1943-44, when the day of the bolt action repeater was almost done, and had a choice it would be an '03A3 for what I think are some pretty good reasons. Despite its faults, though, my first choice in a bolt action repeater would still be a No4 Lee Enfield.
I'd pick the '03A3 hands down. The No 4 Enfield has a peep sight -- a great improvement over the sights on it's predecessors, but so does the 03A3. I keep my Remington '03A3 zeroed for cast bullets and use it for small game. My Smith-Corona is zeroed for soft nose full velocity ammo and it's my "loaner" deer rifle.
Well that's obviously all very true for me as well. I have two kinds of firearms, recreational and serious. My serious guns for self defense are modern firearms. The recreational guns are "vintage" firearms. But the statement stands, if I had to use a Mauser type bolt action repeater in 1943-44, when the day of the bolt action repeater was almost done, and had a choice it would be an '03A3 for what I think are some pretty good reasons. Despite its faults, though, my first choice in a bolt action repeater would still be a No4 Lee Enfield.
My first choice in battle rifles would also be the No. 4 with its 10 round magazine and buttery smooth action.
Vern Humphrey
01-10-2023, 11:25
My first choice in battle rifles would also be the No. 4 with its 10 round magazine and buttery smooth action.
The 10 round magazine is an advantage in Volley Fire -- a tactic the British abandoned when their enemies quit standing in serried ranks. The No. 1 MK III* which came out in January of 1916 omitted the volley sights.
Now consider this -- you and I are going to fire 100 rounds as fast as we can -- you have a SMLE, I have a Springfield. We start with loaded magazines. After 5 rounds, I have to reload. You keep firing for another 5 rounds, then you need to reload -- with 5-round clips. At the end of the exercise, I've crammed 19 5-round clips into my rifle, and you've used 18 -- not much difference.
R. Lee Ermey staged a head to head rapid fire competition between the M1903 and the Lee Enfield. The M1903 got smoked.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5x6yco
Ermey was always entertaining. I miss him.
However, going up against the M1 Garand was a different story.
Vern Humphrey
01-10-2023, 01:45
He was entertaining -- but notice how he fumbled reloading, both the Springfield and the Garand. I can reload a Garand a LOT faster than he can.
But to the point -- the scenario he set up is analogous to volley fire -- which was obsolete by 1916.
Roadkingtrax
01-10-2023, 03:27
It's the aiming that counts.
He was entertaining -- but notice how he fumbled reloading, both the Springfield and the Garand.
I can sympathize - It looks simple, but I have yet to successfully load any of my rifles with a stripper clip.
It's the aiming that counts.
Absolutely correct. Aiming with 10 rounds in the magazine that could be easily topped off and didn’t go PING when it was empty. The Confederate soldiers complained the damn Yankees had new carbines that they would load on Sunday and shoot them all week.
The 10 round magazine is an advantage in Volley Fire -- a tactic the British abandoned when their enemies quit standing in serried ranks. The No. 1 MK III* which came out in January of 1916 omitted the volley sights.
Now consider this -- you and I are going to fire 100 rounds as fast as we can -- you have a SMLE, I have a Springfield. We start with loaded magazines. After 5 rounds, I have to reload. You keep firing for another 5 rounds, then you need to reload -- with 5-round clips. At the end of the exercise, I've crammed 19 5-round clips into my rifle, and you've used 18 -- not much difference.
um,, Vern, the No 1 MK III* was just a change, (LoC) for 1916,
so technically, the No 1 Mk III* did not just come out, as a LoC, (list of changes) they were manufactured without , but some were redone with (and the * barred out) etc etc, others not changed till years later,
Roadkingtrax
01-10-2023, 04:25
Absolutely correct. Aiming with 10 rounds in the magazine that could be easily topped off and didn’t go PING when it was empty. The Confederate soldiers complained the damn Yankees had new carbines that they would load on Sunday and shoot them all week.
When R Lee was alive, he was a regular CMP shooter for the games matches. After shooting with him in Arizona, I'd say he could load the M1 and 1903 just fine for rapids.
I make sure my reloaded rounds run smooth in my stripper clips. I use the same 30-06 brass for all rifles and my M1's can certainly chew up the rims.
It's the aiming that counts.
correct, and reloads are actually quite easy with all 3, if you practice
Vern Humphrey
01-10-2023, 04:28
um,, Vern, the No 1 MK III* was just a change, (LoC) for 1916,
so technically, the No 1 Mk III* did not just come out, as a LoC, (list of changes) they were manufactured without , but some were redone with (and the * barred out) etc etc, others not changed till years later,
True, but the signature change was elimination of volley sights and of the magazine cutoff.
When R Lee was alive, he was a regular CMP shooter for the games matches. After shooting with him in Arizona, I'd say he could load the M1 and 1903 just fine for rapids.
I make sure my reloaded rounds run smooth in my stripper clips. I use the same 30-06 brass for all rifles and my M1's can certainly chew up the rims.
only issue I ever had was if it was hot and I got sweaty, the last round would sometimes slip out from under my thumb, and I would have to push is back in there,
never really slowed me down too much, (and I learned to wipe my hand if I touched my sweaty head,,,)
folks that poo poo on bolt actions really should go watch a games or similar match and see a good shooter run a bolt gun in Rapids
Vern Humphrey
01-10-2023, 05:06
A good friend of mine was a serious Wimbledon shooter (20 shots at a thousand yards.) He said the key is to shoot fast -- wait for the right wind conditions and bang out as many shots as you can before the wind changes. Many top shooters chose bolt actions because they could shoot those faster than either the M1 or M14.
Johnny P
01-10-2023, 07:10
The "ping" of the M1 Rifle clip was almost deafening, and could apparently be heard over the noise of battle by the enemy hundreds of yards away, or so legend has it.
The "ping" of the M1 Rifle clip was almost deafening, and could apparently be heard over the noise of battle by the enemy hundreds of yards away, or so legend has it.
BS,, and has been disproved many times,
I was amazed on my first trip to Perry, standing behind the lines during a Garand Match, at how quiet it was, I was thinking it would be deafening, but 50 yrds or so behind the line and you did not need ear pro, and never heard a ping,
heard gunshots, but not loud,
I can sympathize - It looks simple, but I have yet to successfully load any of my rifles with a stripper clip.
Same here.
Vern Humphrey
01-11-2023, 07:58
The "ping" of the M1 Rifle clip was almost deafening, and could apparently be heard over the noise of battle by the enemy hundreds of yards away, or so legend has it.
Now there's an urban legend for you. Yes, the clip does make a 'ping' when it ejects. And no, no enemy took advantage of that to charge while the American was reloading, because:
1. Americans don't come in ones -- they come in squads, platoons and companies. Just because ONE American is reloading, that doesn't mean the 100+ other men in his company are doing the same thing.
2. Lie down in front of me just out of grenade range and let me shoot over you. When you hear the 'ping' get up and charge. You won't make it to your knees.
Johnny P
01-11-2023, 08:50
Fits right in with the Japanese soldier grinding the mum off his rifle just before they surrendered. Didn't want to embarrass the emperor.
Vern Humphrey
01-13-2023, 04:42
Fits right in with the Japanese soldier grinding the mum off his rifle just before they surrendered. Didn't want to embarrass the emperor.
The Mums were ground off in the arsenals, not by individual soldiers.
Johnny P
01-14-2023, 02:21
The Mums were ground off in the arsenals, not by individual soldiers.
When the U.S. soldiers occupied Japan at the end of WWII the mums were removed off the rifles by both civilians and soldiers with whatever was handy. Some were ground, some were defaced with a file, and some had chisel marks across the mum. They were not done on the battlefield.
Vern Humphrey
01-14-2023, 02:52
When the U.S. soldiers occupied Japan at the end of WWII the mums were removed off the rifles by both civilians and soldiers with whatever was handy. Some were ground, some were defaced with a file, and some had chisel marks across the mum. They were not done on the battlefield.
No question many were defaced by individuals, but most of them were removed by grinding at armories.
[QUOTE=Now consider this -- you and I are going to fire 100 rounds as fast as we can -- you have a SMLE, I have a Springfield. We start with loaded magazines. After 5 rounds, I have to reload. You keep firing for another 5 rounds, then you need to reload -- with 5-round clips. At the end of the exercise, I've crammed 19 5-round clips into my rifle, and you've used 18 -- not much difference.[/QUOTE]
I can get off 14-16 rounds with a Lee Enfield and generally hit a silhouette target at 200 yards in one minute. I've never exceeded 12 with any Mauser Type rifle and that's starting with 5 in both rifles. On the Rapid fire pre WWI drills at 300 yards exercise in the Lee Enfield qualification in which the soldier was given 15 rounds IIRC the rifle was loaded with four to start which necessitated 3 reloads. As the below video indicates firing all 15 was not required and a decent shot could qualify without firing the allotted number of cartridges.
When it comes to reloading practice is absolutely essential and often neglected. In Basic training in the Army not only did we never do rapid fire on the "Trainfire" range but we never did a reloading drill. We did have to reload on the assault and defense courses but no score was kept and the exercises were not timed. A reloading drill for this purpose is firing a timed stage in which after expending the last round in the weapon the shooter reloads and fires again on a scored target. To illustrate the difference this can make, I was the last person in My agency authorized to carry a revolver. I used Safariland Comp II speed loaders for reloads. At the end everyone else was using an auto pistol at qualifications and I know probably none of them ever did a reloading drill on their own time. An example was a stage on the qualifying course (we shot at ranges from three to 50 yards) at 7 yards there was a stage where you fired the last two rounds in your handgun reloaded and fired two more in 20 seconds. On the reloading drills I almost always got off the first shot out of my "wheelgun" after the reload on the reloading stages. If the other dudes (and dudettes) practiced at all I should have been last.
There are other advantages to the Lee Enfield in rapid fire, though starting with 10 (or eleven) does help. Other advantages the Enfield system has include: the smoothness of the action, the bolt handle being behind the trigger guard, the 70 degree bolt rotation by the Enfield as opposed to the 90 degree rotation required on Mauser bolts, the shorter bolt travel due to the locking lugs being at the rear of the bolt instead of the front in the Mauser system. This last also eliminates the need to rotate your face out of the path of the bolt if you've been trained, as I was in the army, to get your face as close to the back sight as possible. I forgot this once shooting an '03 and got a nasty mouse during a rapid fire drill when the cocking piece smacked me right on the cheek bone.
Also, after the Boer war the Brits completely scrapped their rifle training system and instituted a new one that was very practical. In fact it may have been the first practical, comprehensive marksmanship program by any army. Army rifle training in Basic Training when I was in was a dinosaur compared to Brit training in 1914. There is a youtube channel called "British Muzzle Loaders" that has a comprehensive four part series on British marksmanship training in the years leading up to WW I. I am including the section on "The Mad Minute" that, at one point shows the qualification course while debunking a lot of the claims about the "Mad Minute."
If you're interested the complete four part series is well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLT-5pDrKk&T-849s
Vern Humphrey
05-01-2023, 01:52
When it comes to reloading practice is absolutely essential and often neglected. In Basic training in the Army not only did we never do rapid fire on the "Trainfire" range but we never did a reloading drill.
But you didn't train with the M1903!! Back in the day, the Army trained on rapid fire extensively with the Springfield. General "Red" Harris used to write a column for Infantry Magazine, and in one column, he discussed a rapid fire training incident. In the midst of the rattle-click of the drill, there was a BANG! Someone had got a loaded round in a clip of dummy cartridges.
Harris said everyone was stunned -- then one of the men at the target line indicated a perfect pinwheel hit!!
So, yes. In the Springfield days the US Army DID do rapid fire drills -- both with live and dummy ammo.
There are other advantages to the Lee Enfield in rapid fire, though starting with 10 (or eleven) does help. Other advantages the Enfield system has include: the smoothness of the action, the bolt handle being behind the trigger guard, the 70 degree bolt rotation by the Enfield as opposed to the 90 degree rotation required on Mauser bolts, the shorter bolt travel due to the locking lugs being at the rear of the bolt instead of the front in the Mauser system. This last also eliminates the need to rotate your face out of the path of the bolt if you've been trained, as I was in the army, to get your face as close to the back sight as possible. I forgot this once shooting an '03 and got a nasty mouse during a rapid fire drill when the cocking piece smacked me right on the cheek bone.
Also, after the Boer war the Brits completely scrapped their rifle training system and instituted a new one that was very practical. In fact it may have been the first practical, comprehensive marksmanship program by any army. Army rifle training in Basic Training when I was in was a dinosaur compared to Brit training in 1914. There is a youtube channel called "British Muzzle Loaders" that has a comprehensive four part series on British marksmanship training in the years leading up to WW I. I am including the section on "The Mad Minute" that, at one point shows the qualification course while debunking a lot of the claims about the "Mad Minute."
If you're interested the complete four part series is well worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCLT-5pDrKk&T-849s
Thanks.
You're welcome, Vern. I always enjoy your posts.
At the start of the video there is a bit on Brit riflemen buying time to evacuate some artillery pieces. Coggins, writing about the British Army said you can always find paintings about "saving the guns," or "The Last Stand of the Mudfordshires." These works usually neglect to say what piece of noodledom got "the guns" or the unfortunate "Mudforshires" in that position in the first place :evil6:.
Britishmuzzleloader,
Bloke on the Range,
and Paper Cartridges
are all great Utube channels
Vern Humphrey
05-01-2023, 03:06
You're welcome, Vern. I always enjoy your posts.
At the start of the video there is a bit on Brit riflemen buying time to evacuate some artillery pieces. Coggins, writing about the British Army said you can always find paintings about "saving the guns," or "The Last Stand of the Mudfordshires." These works usually neglect to say what piece of noodledom got "the guns" or the unfortunate "Mudforshires" in that position in the first place :evil6:.
Two of the greatest problems of the British Army are, 1) Deliberate amateurism. A friend of mine was pulling a night shift in a NATO exercise and a British major of Engineers said, "Andy would you post this for me? I don't read coordinates." !!!!
The second is failure to communicate. At Singapore, the first Japanese troops crossing the Straits of Johore were badly shot up -- but Lieutenant General Perceval assumed from the shooting that he had been defeated again -- and didn't get any reports telling him differently. He ordered a withdrawal to the Jurong line, and most unit commanders had no idea where the Jurong line was, or what their position in that line was supposed to be. And his staff failed to point out that all of his ammo and supply dumps were NORTH of the Jurong line, so he effectively gave it all to the Japanese.
Disasters like Gandamak, Isandlwana and Spion Kop all trace back to those two problems.
You are absolutely correct, Vern, especially on "Deliberate Amateurism." In the early days of the Royal Navy officers who bought their commissions and couldn't sail a skiff were so common that the Royal Navy resorted to large numbers of Warrant Officers to handle the nuts and bolts of seamanship. To this day RN personnel who are the equivalent of senior chief Petty Officers are Warrant Officers.
Deliberate amateurism is a great way of putting it. Unlike the aristocracies of other European the Brit Nobility. at its best, tended to have a paternalistic attitude toward commoners and dealt with them on a more casual basis in day to day encounters. This did not prevent them from retaining a strict separation between officers and enlisted personnel. This balance could be a good thing. On the other hand there was a very strong attitude that a gentleman was never a tradesman. This aversion to any trade craft (including military trade craft) by the aristocracy, who still make up a good bit (but today certainly not all) of the modern Brit officer corps is shown by the attitude of the Major of Engineers you spoke of. It wasn't until the second decade of the 20th Century that the purchasing of commissions in the British military was finally abolished.
Vern Humphrey
05-02-2023, 04:35
You are absolutely correct, Vern, especially on "Deliberate Amateurism." In the early days of the Royal Navy officers who bought their commissions and couldn't sail a skiff were so common that the Royal Navy resorted to large numbers of Warrant Officers to handle the nuts and bolts of seamanship. To this day RN personnel who are the equivalent of senior chief Petty Officers are Warrant Officers.
Lord St. Vincent, the First Sea Lord during the Napoleonic wars wrote, "Promotion to the flag has happily removed from the command of ships men who never in their lives were fit to command so much as a rowing boat."
Deliberate amateurism is a great way of putting it. Unlike the aristocracies of other European the Brit Nobility. at its best, tended to have a paternalistic attitude toward commoners and dealt with them on a more casual basis in day to day encounters. This did not prevent them from retaining a strict separation between officers and enlisted personnel. This balance could be a good thing. On the other hand there was a very strong attitude that a gentleman was never a tradesman. This aversion to any trade craft (including military trade craft) by the aristocracy, who still make up a good bit (but today certainly not all) of the modern Brit officer corps is shown by the attitude of the Major of Engineers you spoke of. It wasn't until the second decade of the 20th Century that the purchasing of commissions in the British military was finally abolished.
When I was working on the British Attack Helicopter program, a friend told me Army Aviation had determined to have a CGIS (Chief of the Imperial General Staff) and so were energetically recruiting "the right sort." These were graduates of the upper crust of British public schools -- which are basically rich boys' high schools. Because they lacked the background for a technical profession, when they took exams in flight schools, they had an experienced pilot sit with them and "help" them.
Johnny P
05-02-2023, 08:32
This is an old NRA/DCM Sales rifle. They were all the same price regardless of condition. This one appears to have never been issued. Barrel, receiver, and safety were phosphate/Parkerize finished with all other parts being blued.
https://i.postimg.cc/DfBcbcLR/03A3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
Vern Humphrey
05-03-2023, 01:36
Beautiful rifle!
I have two 03A3s -- one Remington and one Smith-Corona. The Smith Corona has a scant stock and is zeroed with hunting ammo. It's a loaner for people who want to hunt on my place.
The Remington has a straight stock and is zeroed with cast bullets (160 grain Lee roundnoses ahead of 27 grains of AA 5547.) That's my squirrel rifle. The local Game Warden had a fit, until I showed him the regulations -- for squirrels, "Nothing larger than .22 rimfire EXCEPT when there is a modern gun or muzzle loading season for deer, bear or coyote." Coyote season runs from 1 January to 31 December.:1948:
. . . . .The local Game Warden had a fit, until I showed him the regulations -- for squirrels, "Nothing larger than .22 rimfire EXCEPT when there is a modern gun or muzzle loading season for deer, bear or coyote." Coyote season runs from 1 January to 31 December.:1948:
yup . . .typical . . . .
Ranks right up there with many other “rules and regulations” . . . .like . . . .
Remember when the wizards down in D.C. wished to eliminate machine guns?
Ban all guns that would “fire multiple projectiles with just one pull of the trigger.” (There goes ALL shotguns!)
One would think these politicians would THINK THINGS THROUGH when they write these laws!
Vern Humphrey
05-03-2023, 02:34
yup . . .typical . . . .
Ranks right up there with many other “rules and regulations” . . . .like . . . .
Remember when the wizards down in D.C. wished to eliminate machine guns?
Ban all guns that would “fire multiple projectiles with just one pull of the trigger.” (There goes ALL shotguns!)
One would think these politicians would THINK THINGS THROUGH when they write these laws!
There's a basic rule of English that says you can't use "politician" and "think" in the same sentence.
Our politicians all have the Union Syndrome. In 1836 the steamboat "Union" pulled away from the docks in Alexandria, VA and blew up in the middle of the river. There was an investigation, and the results were printed in the Alexandria Gazette. The Union was a new boat and there were leaks in the steam system. This was a problem that would cure itself, as scale and sediment built up in the system and blocked the leaks.
But someone got impatient and shoveled "a large quantity of horse manure" into the boiler -- which plugged the lines and blew up the boat.
The Union Syndrome is the belief that you can solve problems by adding horse chit.:evil6:
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