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jon_norstog
01-01-2023, 07:04
I was rereading David Fromkins "A Peace to End All Peace" when this jumped out at me



Churchill had his career ups and downs, for instance he took the heat for the failure of the Gallipoli disaster. In 1919 he was brought back into the Lloyd George government as Colonial Secretary to manage the Britain?s creation of friendly protectorates in Palestine, Transjordan and Mesopotamia (Iraq). The author mentions in passing that prior, he had opposed the Allied dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire. This:

"Arguing that Allied policy in the Middle East ought to be completely reversed, he (Churchill) argued that the Ottoman Empire be restored to its prewar frontiers and suggested that the European powers renounce their claims to Syria, Palestine and other such territories.'Instead of dividing up the Empire into separate territorial spheres of exploitation,' he argued, 'we should combine to preserve the integrity of the Turkish Empire as it existed before the war, but should subject that Empire to a strict form of international control.' "

1 Gilbert, Martin. Winston S. Churchill: Companion Volume, Vol. 4, Part 2: July 1919-March 1921. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, p. 938 (Fromkin's source)

I had thought the same thing when the Middle East started unraveling: Give it back to the Turks. They kept the lid on it for 500 years ? By the time Churchill got back into the government the big decisions had already been made and the government was committed. And here we are, a hundred years later ... talk about sad.

from Fromkin, David: "A Peace to End All Peace." New York, Henry Holt & Co., 1989. p. 494

Vern Humphrey
01-02-2023, 02:51
Churchill was not the strategist he claimed to be. Gallipoli WAS his fault -- how could anyone think the British could do in Gallipoli what they failed to do in France -- fight a war of maneuver?

The invasion of Sicily in WWII and subsequent Italian Campaign was like a Keystone Kops operation. Why in the name of Holy Gilhooly would we want to fight the length of the mountainous Italian Penninsula? And what did we get when we succeeded?

Why not land in the South of France instead? One of two things would have happened if we did that:

1. We would have made progress and opened up ports where more forces could have been landed, eliminating the need for a cross-the-beach landing in 1944, OR

2. The Germans would have built up a solid defense and the D-Day landings would have resulted in a hammer-and-anvil operation where we slammed into them from the rear.

jon_norstog
01-02-2023, 06:53
I'm with you on Italy. As my wife said when we were watching "Patton" ... "they should have listened to Stalin (and opened a front in southern France) instead of Italy

jn

dryheat
01-02-2023, 09:52
I had thought the same thing when the Middle East started unraveling: Give it back to the Turks. They kept the lid on it for 500 years-

Patton was a movie. Stalin wasn't nice.
I think I get the gist of the OP: leave them alone for the most part.

Whatever the strategi people got killed. Not that that matters in war or all that much.

Vern Humphrey
01-03-2023, 10:31
I had thought the same thing when the Middle East started unraveling: Give it back to the Turks. They kept the lid on it for 500 years-

Patton was a movie. Stalin wasn't nice.
I think I get the gist of the OP: leave them alone for the most part.

Whatever the strategi people got killed. Not that that matters in war or all that much.

As MacArthur said, "Your good commanders do not have heavy casualties."