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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-10-2023, 05:31
Next, we will take a look at the 1926 WRA drawing depicting the "Springfield Marine" bases as depicted on page 507 of Brophy. There has been much speculation about this drawing, resulting in some individuals making the absurd claim that this is a drawing of the Marine Mount. This is a drawing of two sets of WRA bases, and no scope mount of any type is depicted.

The difference in use for the two sets of bases, one labeled "Springfield" and the other labeled "Springfield Marine", is the base spacing on the 1903 Springfield rifle. The "Springfield" set of bases is for 6" spacing on a 1903 Springfield rifle. The "Springfield Marine" set of bases is for 7.2" spacing on a 1903 Springfield rifle. We will concentrate on the set of bases for 7.2" spacing, since all the WWI Marine sniper rifles had scopes mounted on 7.2" spacing, which no credible individual disputes.

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The origin of the name "Springfield Marine" for these bases is unknown. The only place this name is known to have been used is for this drawing, made a couple of decades after the bases were known to exist. Anyone, at any time, ordering a Winchester A5 scope to be mounted on a 1903 Springfield rifle by WRA on 7.2" spacing would have these bases attached to that rifle. Use of this set of bases was not limited to the Marines, as they are a commercial set of bases available to anyone from about 1910 forward.

A 1903 Springfield with an A5 scope mounted in OEM #2 mounts on "Springfield Marine" bases is the most commonly encountered scoped '03 there is. They are definitely not rare. I have owned several. Think of all the military rifle teams, Army, Coast Guard, Navy, the numerous National Guard units, and others, that have used them in matches for decades. Add to that the vast number of civilians that owned them, or their shooting clubs owned them, and I am aghast they sell for the prices they bring. Of course, almost every seller claims his rifle to be a "Marine sniper rifle", with absolutely no evidence of such a claim being authenticated. All because of the myth that Marines used rifle team rifles in France. As long as collectors willingly get sucked into this scam, they will continue to sell way beyond their value.

I will be so bold as to point out that there is no shortage of "experts" to verify "Springfield Marine" based scoped rifles as Marine sniper rifles, and they usually own one they proclaim to be a "rare variant". By the way, I own one, but my rifle is not a Marine sniper rifle. I D&T'ed it and mounted the scope myself. It is a 300K LN rifle that had a ruined barrel (since replaced), because I thought collectors would have enough sense to know rifles under 600K were never Marine sniper rifles. Beware! :icon_salut:

As for the name of the bases, maybe the Marines were the first to ask WRA for scopes to be mounted on 7.2" spacing. That seems reasonable, since in the very early days before the war, the 1903 was not available to the public, unless you were someone like Townsend Whelen, Ed Crossman, or Teddy Roosevelt, or belonged to an elite shooting club like Niedner.

The concept to remember is that there is nothing "special" or unique about the "Springfield Marine" set of bases. They were the WRA commercial set of bases for 7.2" spacing on the 1903 Springfield rifle. If you ordered your A5 scope to be mounted on 7.2" spacing, nothing more needed to be said. You would receive your rifle with a set of "Springfield Marine" bases. What was "special" and unique was a set of Niedner taper bases attached to a WRA #2 mount. The mounts "approved by Holcomb" were the "special" #2 mounts modified to accept the Niedner taper bases.

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Of Humorous Note:
It is unfortunate that the steel rings surrounding the scope, and housing the micro-dials, are called mounts. These mounts are mounted on a rifle using bases. One mounts the mount.
Sounds a bit silly.

cplnorton
02-17-2023, 09:56
The nickname of the "Springfield Marine" bases actually was coined between the talks of the Army with WRA during WWI. All of this is documented in the Army, Marine, and WRA files from the National Archives.

The Army in 1918 was wanting the EXACT same Sniper rifles that WRA had supplied the Marines in 1917. So just like Marine sights, these bases picked up the Marine Moniker, because they were the type the Marines used in 1917. It was just a quick way to denote the style of the bases the Army wanted.

Both the Army and Marines had A5 sniper rifles made with these "Marine" bases during WWI and at least 1400 were made during the War.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-17-2023, 10:11
The nickname of the "Springfield Marine" bases actually was coined between the talks of the Army with WRA during WWI. All of this is documented in the Army, Marine, and WRA files from the National Archives.

Well, let us see the documentation.




You got one right - the Army wanted rifles just like the Marines. Rifles with Niedner taper bases that would end their thumbscrew woes. I, respectfully, don't believe you can substantiate any part of the rest of your statements, particularly the source of the name "Springfield Marine".

[QUOTE]Both the Army and Marines had A5 sniper rifles made with these "Marine" bases during WWI and at least 1400 were made during the War.

The "Springfield Marine" bases were nothing but WRA commercial bases for 7.2" spacing on an '03, and they existed many years before the war. You can't document the Marines ever ordering rifles with "Springfield Marine" bases. You are throwing stuff at the wall again.

cplnorton
02-17-2023, 11:03
I'm sorry to say you are missing a lot of data here Jim.

Your statements about the thumbscrews are not correct as well as your other statements.

I highly recommend researching the WRA contracts if you think the WRA Marine mount didn't have a thumbscrew.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-18-2023, 04:20
Show me a USMC order for rifles with thumbscrew mounts and I will concede. Exactly what data am I missing there, Steve? You are welcome to counter with contrary evidence, if you have any. That is why we have these intriguing discussions.

cplnorton
02-18-2023, 04:57
I have no interest in arguing this out like I have in the past. I merely am making comments on your posts that if anyone would run across them in the future they know they should research this topic themselves and come up to their own conclusions. I want the readers to know they should not stop at this research as considerable more information has been discovered and made public.

The WRA docs that detail that the Winchester made Marine mount had thumbscrews has been online for over 5 years now.

Andrew Stolinski actually discovered them first at the Archives. I went back to the Archives and retraced his steps just to make sure nothing was missed.

The one complaint made to WRA in WWI was that the Winchester WRA Marine mount would loose the thumbscrews. They were small and easy to loose. That is why WRA was written to try to order replacements. Which WRA was happy to send them an order of spares.

All these docs by Andrew and myself are online already. You just need to search for them.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-18-2023, 07:12
I have seen those documents, and read your claims, and those documents do not say what you claim them to say. You make assumptions about Doc A, and then if that were true, Doc B must mean this, thus Doc C means that, etc, etc. You created a house of cards based on nothing but a series of erroneous assumptions - particularly that the Marine Mount, as delivered to the Marines, had a thumbscrew mount attachment, and that is utter nonsense.

Respectfully, I'm not here to prove your point, do your own work. Post what you have that verifies the Marines ordered ANY sniper rifles from WRA with thumbscrew mounts. We eagerly look forward to your evidence of same.

I am going to address this very issue in a future thread.

nf1e
02-18-2023, 07:34
Come on guys. Take it to pm. We don't need any open forum arguing.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-18-2023, 08:26
Come on guys. Take it to pm. We don't need any open forum arguing.

Good idea. I'm certainly willing. How about it Steve, old boy?