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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-14-2023, 12:10
Maj. Garland Fay transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba (GITMO) and prepared to start up the GITMO Sniper School at Deer Point. Maj. Fay hand-picks 50 prospective sniper candidates, all Privates. Fay issues the WRA A5 scoped rifles on 4 March 1918, which were picked up (FOB New Haven) on or about 10 Sept 1917 and subsequently shipped to Fay at GITMO. Sniper training began the day following issue at the Deer Point rifle range. I have pictures of the range and snipers, but pic limitation with these posts prohibit me posting them. I will post them later in bunches.

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How do I know when and where the rifles were issued? One of the sniper candidates Fay picked, Leslie David LaValley, kept an illegal diary of his time in the Marine Corps. I have a copy of that diary, as well as a copy of his photo album showing the scoped 1903 rifle SN 645771 he was issued, all courtesy of LaValley's son, Jim LaValley. I had to transcribe the diary so I could read it without straining my eyes. LaValley was a prolific writer and recorded peculiar details, but had a unique penmanship best described as tiny.

One of the pictures is a copy of a page from the diary,and the other is that same page transcribed for the convenience of the reader (and me). The actual diary is much clearer than the photo, but I had to zoom it.

As can be seen, Maj. Fay issued fifty sniper rifles to 50 sniper candidates on 4 Mar 18, including LaValley, who received rifle SN 645771, which will be shown in future posts to have Niedner taper bases. The subject will be covered in detail in future posts, but this rifle serial number is in a range indicating it was part of the WRA order of 500 rifles by Maj. Holcomb. The significance of this is that the phrase "as approved by Holcomb" refers to the Modified #2 mounts with Niedner taper bases. I have many others to back this up, and they will be addressed in future posts.

I have held LaValley's scope case in my hands with its scope intact as issued, as verified by his son, Jim LaValley. The current owner of the scope and case is a retired Vietnam era Scout-Sniper. The scope has the Marine Mounts and Niedner taper base receptacles. The significance of this is that if one of the rifles has Niedner taper bases, they all did. I will include more named scope cases and scopes in later posts. All have Niedner taper bases.

Anyone who cares to check the Marine Muster Rolls will discover these people were where this document says they where, at the times I say they were. I have a list of the names of the fifty men who received sniper rifles that day, but there is no probative value in posting them.

Many of the sniper’s scope cases and scopes have turned up in the intervening years. When they mustered out after the war, they turned in their rifles, but not their scopes. No serial number on the scopes meant no 782 gear record, thus no request to turn them in. Many of these scope cases have handwritten records indicating the sniper’s name and matching rifle serial number. I cross-referenced every single one of them through the list of names and the Muster Rolls. Every one of them checks out as being at Deer Point, and subsequently being transferred to OSD SOS School, and eventually being in the 11th or 13th Marine Regiments. More on this subject in subsequent posts.

The list of snipers below is from the diary. The picture of LaValley on his way to the OSD rifle range for the last time is from his photo album. He is holding his scoped sniper rifle with its scope attached. If you go to the Marine sniping school at Stoney Point, you will see a painting of this picture on the wall.

The sniper rifles issued at Deer Point by Maj. Garland Fay on 4 Mar 1918 were 1903 Springfield’s with Winchester A5 scopes mounted in modified #2 mounts with Niedner taper bases.

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JohnMOhio
02-16-2023, 08:29
Thanks Jim, looking forward to the next post on this subject.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-17-2023, 06:51
Thank you, John. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was interested in the subject. I have had this data for a very long time, and I finally decided to share it after seeing the proliferation of flawed information being posted as fact backed by documentation, when the documents posted did not actually support the claims of the poster. I made a living doing research on thermophilic anaerobic bacteria, and the hardest lesson I had to learn was not to accept isolated links of disconnected data as proof of anything. Researchers are collectors of data, but data collectors are not researchers.

The forum format is not conducive to laying out prolific amounts of information, particularly pictures and documents. It takes me hours to prepare each post. Some of my databases are huge. I have a database of 3385 Marine 1903 Springfield's, a database of scoped '03's with 737 entries, and a database of photos in the thousands. It takes hours to prepare the information for these posts, as I try to pick the most informative examples to post due to pic limitations in the posts.

It's always good to hear from you, John. I am working on the next post now.

bruce
02-17-2023, 08:41
Have very much enjoyed your posts on this and other subjects. Appreciate the effort you put into these posts and the results made available at CSP. Sincerely. bruce.

cplnorton
02-17-2023, 06:52
Jim I think you have confused a lot of the data in La Valley's album. Maybe because of poor quality, and not able to read it in detail.

But a lot of the conclusions you are coming to aren't stated in the diary. There isn't much in the diary you can really conclude anything on the actual rifles or when the rifles were actually issued. Most of it is very generic, and a lot of the data is actually contradictory to itself.

I don't think there is really any concrete evidence that cane be taken from the diary on the rifles. For what's it's worth.

Btw I made a copy of it. I felt honored to go through it in person. But to be able to make some of the claims you are making in this post, I did not see that info stated in the diary, and do not see how you came to those conclusions.

To those reading this, I highly recommend if you are interested in this topic to conduct your own research. There is a lot out there.

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Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-17-2023, 08:10
Jim I think you have confused a lot of the data in La Valley's album. Maybe because of poor quality, and not able to read it in detail.

I think you mean "diary instead" of "album". I confused nothing. I posted a copy of the diary entry just for the issue date, and anyone can see that is correct. To exactly what "diary data" are you referring? Be specific.


But a lot of the conclusions you are coming to aren't stated in the diary. There isn't much in the diary you can really conclude anything on the actual rifles or when the rifles were actually issued. Most of it is very generic, and a lot of the data is actually contradictory to itself.

To exactly what "conclusions" are you referring? Other than the issue date and the names mentioned, I have made no conclusions from the diary. Again, to what "contradictory" data do you refer? Get it together, man. Be specific. Are you just throwing stuff against the wall to see what will stick?


I don't think there is really any concrete evidence that cane be taken from the diary on the rifles. For what's it's worth.

All I needed was the issue date, and I have no idea what "diary rifle data" you refer to. If I am wrong, give us the correction.


Btw I made a copy of it. I felt honored to go through it in person. But to be able to make some of the claims you are making in this post, I did not see that info stated in the diary, and do not see how you came to those conclusions.

Good for you. I have a copy also, and it is very interesting reading. Do you have a problem comprehending that which you read? For the third time, be specific. What "claims" are you talking about that I supposedly got from the diary?


To those reading this, I highly recommend if you are interested in this topic to conduct your own research. There is a lot out there.

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I wholeheartedly agree with this guy for once. Always check out that which anyone, including me, posts. Read what is stated very carefully, and if you disagree, check it out with other sources. Andrew, smokeeaterpilot, has done a marvelous job retrieving documents from the Archives, but be cautious when you read any document, particularly when relating one document to another. We deal with military documents, and anything one man writes can be superceded by anyone of higher rank. I remember a newspaper that boldly claimed Dewey defeated Truman for President.

cplnorton
02-17-2023, 08:22
I am no longer going to get into the 10 pages of arguments we used to have. It is pointless.

I am merely going to notate that I went thru the same research that you cite and do not agree with the the majority of the conclusions you stated above. I don't see the info you are stating described in the book.

Now I hope others who are truly interested in this topic will go out and see this research as well and make up their own minds.

But arguing this, I have no desire to do that anymore.

Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
02-17-2023, 08:28
The only conclusions I drew from the book were the issue date, the man who issued them, and where they were issued. All appear in the page I published. The big story came from a multitude of resources.