Nice Example

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

This rifle is a nice example of a 1st WRA Order rifle. It is a matched set, but the scope case is absent any sniper's name. This rifle and scope case exhibit some degree of hard use, as the stock and handguard have both been replaced at some point in time. The rifle has it original barrel intact. I do know that at least one of the 1st WRA Order made its way into the combat arena with the 5th Marine Regiment. I wonder if this one made the same journey?

When Pershing demanded the Marines turn over 90 sniper rifles to Army Ordnance and a British sniper school at Landres, it is entirely possible those rifles were never returned. The 6th would have quickly requested replacement sniper rifles from Marine Headquarters. The replacements rifles would have consisted entirely of rifles from the two WRA orders. The 6th Marine Regiment went to France with sniper rifles from the two WRA orders and the Niedner group of rifles initially. Pershing's allotment for each of the two regiments was 96 sniper rifles (192 rifles total), which indicates the 6th went to France with, at minimum, 42 WRA sniper rifles. Considering that we now know that several of the Niedner rifles were issued at GITMO, the exact number of WRA rifles that went to France with the 6th was more than 46 rifles.

The serial number of this rifle is obscured by the rear taper base, thus the original stock would have had its serial number stamped into the stock just in front of the rear crossbolt. The rifle's scope is in Marine Mounts with Niedner type taper bases.

Note:
I have a lot more of neat stuff to post, so I hope we can get through at least one thread with no personal attacks.

51677

51678

[cplnorton]

There are only a few traits that you can use to tell a real Marine made Mann Niedner rifle. Which unfortunately this rifle does not have.

The Marines never used that style handguard on any known pictures of Mann Niedner rifles from WWI to WWII. The handguard is actually a copy of an Unertl, which means it's very likely someone faked it in the Civilian world and didn't know the correct way to make an accurate clone.

If someone in the Civilian world made that handguard, then the whole rifle is suspect. Especially since it's missing the traits you could use to tell a real rifle and without those traits it's very, very easy to fake one.

The only way I would ever state this one is real, is if you could find the serial on an official Marine doc. A number on a case can be easily faked.

Personally I do not think there is enough "trait" evidence here to call this rifle real.

[cplnorton]

Btw,

I actually looked at this rifle when it came up for sale. It was local to me.

I do not remember a serial number on the case and it is not mentioned in the auction link. So if there is a serial on the case now, I think it's been added. I hate to ever talk negatively about a rifle, but I did not see anything on this rifle that made me think it was real.

The handguard looked newly made.

Here is a link to the Auction. I save all this stuff in my logs I keep on sniper rifles.

https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/cowans/springfield-u-s-model-1903-usmc-sniper-rifle-with-winchester-scope-and-case-1121805

https://i.imgur.com/7UXQHtA.png

[cplnorton]

Btw it sold in 2018 for $4700. So it basically sold for the sum of the parts.

This was a well advertised auction and all the big collectors I know knew about it.

If they thought it was real I think it would have went over 20k.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

....The only way I would ever state this one is real, is if you could find the serial on an official Marine doc. A number on a case can be easily faked.

Do you have an "official Marine doc" declaring your 300K rifle a Marine sniper, as you have claimed? You need to think before you put things to pen.


Personally I do not think there is enough "trait" evidence here to call this rifle real.

Which bears no significance whatsoever.

Time to shut this one down.

[Allen]

It's back open for anyone else who would like to comment.

[cplnorton]

Thank you Allen.

I had thought the moderators were locking these threads so I could not comment, but here it was actually Jim making a final comment and locking them so I could not offer a rebuttal.

I could say something about that, but I think anyone reading that would already think it.

Thank you and Lyman for making sure these threads remain open.

[cplnorton]

Do you have an "official Marine doc" declaring your 300K rifle a Marine sniper, as you have claimed? You need to think before you put things to pen.



Which bears no significance whatsoever.

Time to shut this one down.


There were likely over 2500 A5 Sniper rifles made in WWI. There are only a handful of serial numbers known.

Traits are the only way to actually identify these rifles, and some of the traits are very specific and would be near impossible to fake. But when the rifle shows up that doesn't have any of those traits, and that serial is not on a Marine document, then it becomes basically impossible to prove a rifle is legit.

That is the fact of this rifle Jim posted. None of the traits we know that can prove a rifle is legit are present on this rifle. I have personally seen it.

There would not be any reliable way to prove this rifle he posted is real.

As I said earlier, the guys with big pockets knew about this one. I talked to several of them over it. If someone thought this rifle was real, it would have went for over 20k. But it went for the price of the sum of the parts because none of us believed there is anyway to prove this one is legit.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

You keep repeating the same old drivel, over and over. Why don't you try something useful, like explaining the existence of all the named scope cases that all have scopes with taper bases.

[cplnorton]

You keep repeating the same old drivel, over and over. Why don't you try something useful, like explaining the existence of all the named scope cases that all have scopes with taper bases.

You have found less than a dozen scope cases with names. The Marines ordered 1650 scope cases in WWI, and the Army ordered another 900.

A dozen out of 2,550 scope cases doesn't tell you very much factual info.