Random thoughts on religion...

[5thDragoons]

On another site, Brit forum members were getting slightly agitated about religion. Something to do with Church of England vs Catholic Church and the connection of both to Brexit, most of which I really didn't understand. I think moderizers contacted certain members privately to prevent a Northern Ireland Catholic vs Protestant style squabble and it died out.

Growing up, we lived on a ranch 14 miles from the small community where I attended country school so not much church exposure for me then. During the summer, Mom & Dad would leave me to visit my great grandmother in another small town. This was in the early 60s - she was born in 1878 - as in elderly at the time.

I don't recall the name of the church she attended... it wasn't a "mainstream" church, but I'm probably better off not mentioning which one it was. I clearly recall the main man stopping by for "donations" in the middle of the week and thought considerably less of him for that, knowing great grandma hadn't much in the way of money. Actually, I was bitter about it for a long time until I considered in a very small town with a very small congregation, he was probably trying to raise enough to buy a few groceries.

In Jr Hi, Mom got me signed up for Wed night youth church. Tough crowd! I got in more fights at church than I ever did in school. My main take away from that concerned watching out for sucker punches. But we sent our daughters to catechism, and they got on well with that. Older daughter attends regularly - younger daughter... not so much.

What prompted this post? Wifey is on her iPad watching Sat. night church and listening to that brough back a few early memories from my religious experiences. SW

[lyman]

watched, or really listened, to a bit of the Coronation yesterday whilst doing stuff around the house,
did notice a bit of conversation about how inclusive (paraphrasing a bit) King Charles would be regarding other non christian religions,

there also seemed to be a big deal about the Prime Minister (who is Hindu) reading some passages from the Bible,


I was brought up in a Baptist family, one side never attended, the other went several times a month,

first preacher I remember had the 60's Clint Eastwood hair cut, and was a bit fire and brimstone,


when we moved out to the semi rural county, we stopped attending, and i have not been back since,

mother claims a Comparative Religion course in college ruined me,

wife goes but does not push me to go, (not that she would succeed)


basically, to put a name on it, I'm Agnostic

[k arga]

I'm with you Lyman

[Art]

I believe part of the dust up in the OP was the use of a church in The Vatican to host an Episcopal service. The Episcopalians and other Anglicans along with the Lutherans are sort of Catholic lite in that their services can look very Catholic from the outside. Anyhow, those Episcopalians didn't jump through the proper hoops and it caused a big blow up with the Catholics because the people who authorized this didn't have the authority to do it and if the people who did have the authority had been consulted it would have never happened.

The King of The United Kingdom, besides being head of state, is head of the Church of England, it comes with the territory. His mom was very serious about that part, how serious old Charlie III is we'll have to see. Church attendance is very spotty in the U.K. and, in fact, in all of Europe and getting more and more that way here as the political, social, and economic benefits of church membership decline (see thread on the decline of social clubs.) Some Christians actually look on that as a benefit in that you're getting down to the "true believers."

I saw a recent poll that said in this century regular church attendees in this country are down under 50% for the first time since they've been keeping records and the number of non believers, atheists and agnostics has risen to over 20% of the population from under 10% at the end of the last century. Smaller churches have really taken it in the shorts as people gravitate to larger ones in large part because of programs for their kids. Its not for long if a church doesn't have a really strong youth program in the current environment.

[Doc Sharptail]

Grandad was an ex-com Catholic, so we grew up in a weird mish/mash of what Mom and Dad were doing: United and Anglican.
Was supposed to do the confirmation thing at age 12 and chickened out due to a severe case of stage-fright.
Probably had something to do with so few of us doing it~ would've been alone up there.

I noted with interest the stance of my great grand parents who were old-time Catholic.
They'd darken any, (and I MEAN any) door for family, and not even say boo.
Tolerant was what they were, and it set a great example for the rest of the family.

Sat through some very good morals based sermons as a kid, and couldn't agree more that this sort of thing is still a good idea today.
I don't go anymore, since I came to terms with myself.
Personally, I can't even claim Agnosticism- I've taken far too many fish and wild game to deny anything.

Regards,

Doc Sharptail

[Johnny P]

As a teenager attended church with a good friend. Preacher was from the fire and brimstone school. He gave the teenage boys hell as he would gesture toward the female choir, "you boys tell these young girls, give me just one kiss and I will buy you a diamond ring!" which we never figured out.

One of the church ladies lived right across the street from the church, and noticed the church secretary and the preacher were having a lot of nighttime business at the church. One night she walked over, and found the preacher's study locked. She sat down and waited until they came out, and by the next day the Lord had called the preacher to another church.

[Mark in Ottawa]

My random thought on religion is that over the centuries, religion of one variety or sub-variety or another has caused more death and destruction than any other motivation except possibly the raw desire for power. Just think of the battles in Europe between Catholics and Protestants; between Catholics and people that the Catholic Church thought were heretics; between Christians and Jews; between Moslems and Christians and between Moslems and Jews; between Moslems and anybody who didn't want to be Moslem; between Hindus and Moslems; etc., etc.

In almost all cases, the hatreds have been spurred on by the religious extremists who feel that they have both a right and a duty to impose their will on others (and who gain power, thereby)

I know that the belief in God and in Heaven brings comfort to a lot of people, but the evil that has been carried out in the name of religion is overwhelming

[lyman]

the little Church the wife and I got married in split up the congregation a few years later,

small baptist church lost 1/3 or so if it's members over a squabble between 2 deacons, who were friends, over some drama (not cheating etc, just some squabble) outside of church,

[blackhawknj]

Historians pretty much agree that the 20th Century has been the worst and the monsters of the 20th Century, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mao and all the Minor League ones-Pol Pot, e.g. were secular in motivation.
One of the ironies of the 1960s was that it brought people who had been at each others throats for centuries-Christians and Jews, e.g.-together, they suddenly realized they had an awful lot in common, shared values, e.g. In this country Evangelicals fighting to keep LGBTQ propaganda out of schools are being joined by Muslim parents who are just as opposed, in Jerusalem a few years at a new conference to protest a homosexual rights conference were 2 Orthodox rabbis, 2 Christian bishopsand 2 imams.

[one shot]

I keep religion between me and my maker

[Allen]

I keep religion between me and my maker

+1

[Ken The Kanuck]

I am not smart enough to know God's thoughts, I will just try to be a good person and see how that works out.

[Art]

I'm glad we don't have a religion forum on here but I am going to chime in about two things.

1. Church leaders are subject to corruption just like anyone who has access to influence and money. Jesus said "The Scribes and the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law sit in the seat of Moses so you must do what they say, but do not do what they do for they are corrupt."

2. We don't realize the influence of Judeo Christianity on Western Civilization whether you're a believer or not. I watched the old movie Spartacus today and they credited the abolition of slavery in Western Civilization to Christianity. In the anti Christian environment today that would never happen but its true. In ancient Israel when slavery is mentioned its almost always a form of indenture, paying off debt or binding oneself to a wealthier person voluntarily to insure eating regularly. In the Law of Moses trafficking in human beings was a capital offense and it is prohibited to return a runaway slave to its owner. In the "New Testament" it is explicitly stated that all people are equal to God, male or female, Jew or Greek, free or slave. So to God sex, race, ethnicity or "condition of servitude" are irrelivent. In fact in Timothy and Revelation "traffickers in human souls" (slave traders ) are in the list of gross sins. There is a short letter from Paul to a Christian in Greece named Philemon regarding a slave of the said Philemon who had run away and wound up with Paul. Paul sends him back and tells Philemon to remember that the slave is his brother. Well its a little hard to justify the slavery of your brother. In Rome this sort of thing was seditious talk because the Romans lived in constant fear of "servile insurrection."

Christianity is also responsible for hospitals, at least as we know them and universities. Before Christianity there were doctors but no medical institutions and higher education was being accepted as a student by a known teacher. In the Pagan world these were people like Plato or Aristotle in the Pagan world or Hillel or Gamiliel in Israel. Whether you're a believer or not Judeo Christianity deserves a tip of the hat for that alone.

[lyman]

great points Art,

another thing, besides hospitals,

the Crusades, as much as they like to be beaten upon in today's world, were the reason we had the Renaissance,

the Crusaders found , and pillaged, the libraries that were supposedly going to waste in the Muslim world, and brought the books and knowledge back with them,

[JOHN COOK]

I keep religion between me and my maker

Agree !!!

j.cook in SC

[Vern Humphrey]

I believe part of the dust up in the OP was the use of a church in The Vatican to host an Episcopal service. The Episcopalians and other Anglicans along with the Lutherans are sort of Catholic lite in that their services can look very Catholic from the outside. Anyhow, those Episcopalians didn't jump through the proper hoops and it caused a big blow up with the Catholics because the people who authorized this didn't have the authority to do it and if the people who did have the authority had been consulted it would have never happened.

The problem dates back to the Gnostics of the First century and a couple of hundred years later. They tried to hijack Christianity, claiming they had "secret" knowledge. Ireneus, the Bishop of Lugdunum (modern Lyons in France) defended orthodox Christianity. He contacted all the churches founded by Apostles and asked if their founding apostles had left them any secret knowledge, and they all replied that they had not.

Since then, the Church has emphasized the Apostolic Succession -- all valid bishops must be able to trace their ordination back to an Apostle. The Catholic, Orthodox and Nestorian Churches can do this, but the Episcopalians and Lutherans cannot.

It wasn't a matter of the Episcopalians "jumping through the proper hoops," it was lack of the Apostolic Succession that was objectionable.

[Art]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

[lyman]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

[Vern Humphrey]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

All Protestant churches are offshoots of the Catholic Church, or offshoots of an offshoot of the Catholic Church.

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

That's correct. The Catholic Church does not recognize Episcopalian or Anglican orders (ordinations.)

[Art]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?


Not far from the truth at all but only as far as form goes. An Episcopalian is not a Catholic even though their services are extremely similar. As a matter of fact if you went to the
Episcopal service I mentioned above you would probably think you were at Mass if you were a Catholic unless you were paying really close attention which was also an issue with the Catholics regarding the service at the Vatican. Lutheran services are very similar in form as well.

For quite a while now, as a result of a a growing split on doctrine within the Episcopal church on mainly sexual issues; the Roman Catholic Church has accepted ordained Episcopal Priests who have left the Episcopal communion over moral concerns into the church and ordained some of them as Catholic Priests. Most of these new ex Episcopal Catholic priests are married and have been exempted from the vow of celibacy.

[Vern Humphrey]

Not far from the truth at all. Episcopal and Catholic services are extremely similar. As a matter of fact if you went to the Episcopal service I mentioned you would probably think you were at Mass if you were a Catholic unless you were paying really close attention which was also an issue with the Catholics regarding the service at the Vatican. Lutheran services are very similar as well.

For quite a while now, as a result of a a growing split on doctrine within the Episcopal church on mainly sexual issues; the Roman Catholic Church has accepted ordained Episcopal Priests who have left the Episcopal communion over moral concerns as Catholic Priests. Most of these new ex Episcopal Catholic priests are married and have been exempted from the vow of celibacy.

That's true.

The Catholic Church is divided into two great branches, Eastern and Western. The Eastern Branch has 28 different rites (confusingly enough, sometimes called "churches") such as the Syro-Malabar rite in India, the Coptic rite in Egypt, and so on. The Western Branch until recently had only one rite, the Roman rite. Within the last few years a new rite has been created, the Anglican rite. This was done to welcome Episcopalian parishes and dioceses that came over to the Catholic Church. Their priests can be married (although bishops cannot) and they still use the Book of Common Prayer.

[Art]

That's true.

The Catholic Church is divided into two great branches, Eastern and Western. The Eastern Branch has 28 different rites (confusingly enough, sometimes called "churches") such as the Syro-Malabar rite in India, the Coptic rite in Egypt, and so on. The Western Branch until recently had only one rite, the Roman rite. Within the last few years a new rite has been created, the Anglican rite. This was done to welcome Episcopalian parishes and dioceses that came over to the Catholic Church. Their priests can be married (although bishops cannot) and they still use the Book of Common Prayer.

Rarely they take the Priest without the congregation. Larry Gipson who was the Rector at St Martin's in Houston, the largest Episcopal Church in The United States, Where he was pastor to ex President George H.W. Bush converted to Roman Catholicism and was ordained into the Roman Catholic Church on his own where he rose to the rank of Monsignor pastoring a traditional Catholic parish, St Gregory the Great in Mobile, Ala. Fr. Gipson was also a married man. It works out for everybody. The ex Episcopal folks get a friendlier environment and the Catholics get help with their clergy shortage.

[Vern Humphrey]

Rarely they take the Priest without the congregation. Larry Gipson who was the Rector at St Martin's in Houston, the largest Episcopal Church in The United States, Where he was pastor to ex President George H.W. Bush converted to Roman Catholicism and was ordained into the Roman Catholic Church on his own where he rose to the rank of Monsignor pastoring a traditional Catholic parish, St Gregory the Great in Mobile, Ala. Fr. Gipson was also a married man. It works out for everybody. The ex Episcopal folks get a friendlier environment and the Catholics get help with their clergy shortage.

For a long time Episcopalian priests have been able to join the Catholic Church and be ordained.

[Art]

For a long time Episcopalian priests have been able to join the Catholic Church and be ordained.

yep

[blackhawknj]

Years ago I knew a man, he was ordained as a Presbyterian minister, was married and expecting their first child, and ended up becoming a married Catholic priest. I read of one Catholic diocese that had an ordination program for older men who had married, had families. IIRC the rule in the Eastern churches is a parish priest can marry, if you want to ascend to the higher ranks you must remain celibate.
Henry VIII declared himself Supreme Head of the Church in England so he could divorce Catherine of Aragon because she had failed to provide him with a male heir. For a variety of reasons England allied itself with the Protestants, the Anglican Church ended up sort of Catholic in form and Protestant in spirit.

[dryheat]

Religion talk is a little like car talk. When I went to our country Baptist church us kids huddled around and the smart kids could blurt out Matthew, Mark,Luke and John by the numbers. Why? It's training. I know that some of those kids went on to be very successful in life. I'm going to quote Yuval Noah Harari because I'm reading his book a lot.

-The Mauryan Empire in the 3rd century BC took as its mission the dissemination of Buddha's teachings to an ignorant world. The Muslim caliphs received a divine mandate to spread the Prophet's revelation, peacefully if possible but by the sword if necessary.- [and if you got a little swag OK].

-It is the first worlds moral obligation to bring the benefits of democracy and human rights to the third world even if it takes cruise missiles and F-16's- We, at least me, knows that's ahh...

Religion is mythical. It was what was invented and used to set the masses (and little kids) straight. Now we are too smart for that, or too lazy to learn a little of it. Teach your children well. Let them make their own decisions. But a little of it hangs on and that can't hurt.

[blackhawknj]

The religious figure who is exposed as a fraud and a hypocrite is a stock figure in literature-Elmer Gantry, e.g., and is justly held up to scorn and ridicule, the thieving and corrupt politician-where is the Great American Novel that gave that individual a label ? The Joe Paterno/Gerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State quickly went into the
Memory Hole. Everyone remembers Himmler and Heydrich, who remembers Yagoda and Yezhov, Stalin's police chiefs who made the Gestapo look like a real road show operation ?

[Vern Humphrey]

The religious figure who is exposed as a fraud and a hypocrite is a stock figure in literature-Elmer Gantry, e.g., and is justly held up to scorn and ridicule, the thieving and corrupt politician-where is the Great American Novel that gave that individual a label ? The Joe Paterno/Gerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State quickly went into the
Memory Hole. Everyone remembers Himmler and Heydrich, who remembers Yagoda and Yezhov, Stalin's police chiefs who made the Gestapo look like a real road show operation ?

There is a reason for that. If we were exposed to the reality of communism/socialism many of our most powerful politicians would be street people.

[RED]

I am not smart enough to know God's thoughts, I will just try to be a good person and see how that works out.

I once picked up a motto and have tried my best to follow it. It goes something like rhis:

I WILL NOT LIE,CHEAT, OR STEAL, NOR WILL I TOLERATE THISE WHO DO!

Once I took a test for a job. One of the questions was: Have you ever stolen from your employer?

I answered yes!

I had accidentally taken home pencils, pens, stickies, box cutters, etc. I was the only one that answered yes,and, yes, I got the job.

[Vern Humphrey]

I once picked up a motto and have tried my best to follow it. It goes something like rhis:

I WILL NOT LIE,CHEAT, OR STEAL, NOR WILL I TOLERATE THISE WHO DO!

Once I took a test for a job. One of the questions was: Have you ever stolen from your employer?

I answered yes!

I had accidentally taken home pencils, pens, stickies, box cutters, etc. I was the only one that answered yes,and, yes, I got the job.

That's the motto of the Cadet Corps at the US Military Academy,