Property Tax

[Allen]

One of the biggest government over reaches that exist.

Some say the taxes are for education, police and fire protection. My homeowners insurance will pay for any fire damage and should have to pay for any fire departments services. Why would someone who has a $500,000 home pay more tax than someone living in a $50,000 home? Does it cost more to extinguish the fire at the nicer home?

Police services? I donno, I've never called them but when a simple traffic violation or speeding ticket cost over $200 they should be self supporting.

Public school system? Aside from being an absolute joke lets say OK, then those in private schools or those being home schooled should be exempt from that portion of the property tax and where did the correlation come from where the amount of land you own or the value of your land and home equates to the number you have in public schools? In the cities the parents with the largest number of kids taking up seats in the school system rent. They don't own and can't afford to own. So, these people pay nothing for public education and it's not passed on to the landlords. They receive the same rent regardless of how large a family.

[dryheat]

I just got an interesting statement from our county assessor. 2024 my houses FCV (full cash value) is right on what I consider is accurate. $430,000. Then there's the estimate for 2025. The FCV drops $58,000. I tried to go on line but that's too tough for me to figure out. If you call the ph. no., well, I stayed on the phone for fifteen minutes and gave up.
I'm not overly concerned about any of it.
Oh and that's not what the tax is based on. It went up 5%.

[Major Tom]

Years ago, a friend planted a medium size back yard garden. He noticed his tax went up! When he inquiered about that, the city said he "improved" his property! BTW, this city uses drones to keep up to date on everyone's property 24-7.

[blackhawknj]

He should have said it was a food garden and demanded a farmland assessment.
Yes, with a property tax you don't own, you just rent from the municipality.
Chicago has always been very ruthless about collecting property taxes. And look at the quality of their "vital public services".
"Free" public schools-they're tuition-free, that's all.
IIRC one of the reasons why Caiifornians approved Proposition 13 in 1978 was, if a house was sold all the other houses in that neighborhood would be reassessed. People were going through yearly re-evaluations.
In the ciities the parents with the largest number of kids in school, live off public largess, use their children as meal tickets.

[Art]

When I was a child the only tax in Texas was the property tax. The property tax goes back to the founding of The Republic and isn't going away. I consider it one of the first "soak the rich" taxes because it was targeted originally at larger land owners but of course has trickled down to everyone, even if you rent.

Free states often handle things differently. Here a property tax reform law was just passed more than doubling the percentage of appraised value that is exempt the tax. It also capped the increase a taxing entity can impose on the value of your home to 10% a year. The effect of this can vary a bit on where you live but where I am, in conjunction with the "geezer exemptions" that kick in here at age 85, the tax on our modest $275,000.00 place became zero. Now that's an exception but everyone I know has seen big reductions.

I personally would prefer sales taxes in lieu of all other taxes, including excise and luxury taxes many of which we actually pay but never see. Since the tax would be paid on what you spend you would know exactly what the "gubmint" would be taking on every purchase. Now I realize that all in such taxes, if they were Federal, State and Local could total up to 40% of each purchase, but you know what, sports fans, you're actually paying at least that now.

[Allen]

I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.

As I mentioned before, I inherited a portion of land in Texas that had one producing oil well on it. For several reasons all of us who received the land sold it to avoid liability but retained the mineral rights. We paid property taxes before. Now we are charged about the same amount for the minerals under the property and pay taxes on any oil that is pumped. So, we're paying taxes for those minerals twice plus the new owners are paying property taxes on the land.

[Art]

I'm going to make a point I've made before. The property tax gets a lot of criticism, most of it in the form of "I don't really own my home it the 'gubmint can take it on a tax lien." If you think that's bad, the IRS can literally take everything you've got, your house your bank accounts, your chattel property, the works. Any taxing agency is another side of the same coin. Don't pay and they are coming for your stuff.

I know people who through no fault of their own were reduced to poverty by the IRS including one who simply had his name on a signature card when the company big shots got the h#ll out of Dodge (and the country) leaving this poor guy holding the bag. He had no idea they were committing fraud and he, in fact had no accounting function, he was just the last man standing who could write a check. There is a Tyler Perry movie called "Madea's Witness Protection" dealing a variation on this issue. Note - if you don't have access to the books don't have your name on a bank signature card.

One more plus about the sales tax. If the tax isn't paid they're going after the merchant, not you. I know somebody that happened to also. His business was failing and he suddenly didn't have the money on hand to write the sales tax check to the state. Yep, he was in a heap of trouble too.

[RED]

"Police services? I donno, I've never called them but when a simple traffic violation or speeding ticket cost over $200 they should be self supporting."

Those tickets rarely cost $200! The last one I got cost me $2,048. That was $248 for a fine and $1,800 insurance premium for my cars!

This was a completely ridiculous ticket by a crooked city cop for a Failure to Yield. I was in the left turn lane and the cop was on the through lane opposite direction. It was rush hour and I had sit for 2 cycles, and when the light went green the cop did not move and pointed to me to make the turn. Stupidly, I made the turn and he wrote the ticket and laughed.

My Insurance went up $300 every month for 3 years.

[Allen]

"Police services? I donno, I've never called them but when a simple traffic violation or speeding ticket cost over $200 they should be self supporting."

Those tickets rarely cost $200! The last one I got cost me $2,048. That was $248 for a fine and $1,800 insurance premium for my cars!

This was a completely ridiculous ticket by a crooked city cop for a Failure to Yield. I was in the left turn lane and the cop was on the through lane opposite direction. It was rush hour and I had sit for 2 cycles, and when the light went green the cop did not move and pointed to me to make the turn. Stupidly, I made the turn and he wrote the ticket and laughed.

My Insurance went up $300 every month for 3 years.

You DO seem to have bad luck with the cops in your area.

Overall, I see the good side of them. I've been ticketed for a few things I wasn't guilty of but to some degree we probably all break the law every time we drive. Unfortunately it comes down to one persons judgement most of the time and no proof (video, radar). When I worked I drove 110 miles a day and my trips looked much like the chase scenes you see on YouTube (me being the speeder).

What I was referring to though was "calling" the police for something like a domestic call or complaint against a neighbor, someone shooting at me, running into my fence or house, etc.

[Johnny P]

Haven't had to use one, but hear that it is cheaper to hire a traffic ticket lawyer to get your speeding ticket reduced to no points than pay jacked up auto insurance forever. There are firms that specialize in traffic tickets. Paying the ticket for your foul deed is just the beginning.

[JohnMOhio]

Hey Red! If your insurance premium increased by $300 a month due to that ticket I would think you need a new insurance company and a new agent. I don't know of any company that would increase the premium over that type of violation. Is there more to the story? What was your record at that time?

[dryheat]

Haven't had to use one, but hear that it is cheaper to hire a traffic ticket lawyer to get your speeding ticket reduced to no points than pay jacked up auto insurance forever. There are firms that specialize in traffic tickets. Paying the ticket for your foul deed is just the beginning.
I saw a smart guy bring his lawyer. The lawyer said something in code and the judge responded. It was well done.

[Vern Humphrey]

I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.

As I mentioned before, I inherited a portion of land in Texas that had one producing oil well on it. For several reasons all of us who received the land sold it to avoid liability but retained the mineral rights. We paid property taxes before. Now we are charged about the same amount for the minerals under the property and pay taxes on any oil that is pumped. So, we're paying taxes for those minerals twice plus the new owners are paying property taxes on the land.

The problem with a sales tax is that it is regressive. Imagine a man who makes $40K a year. He has to spend it all to keep alive. At 30% (the usually suggested "national sales tax") he would be paying $12K a year -- a full 30% of his income.

Now imagine a man who makes $400k year -- he can't spend all that. He might spend $200k a year, and pay $60k a year in taxes, only 15% of his income. A sales tax is regressive and favors the rich.

I personally think we should pay the Fair Tax. Everyone pays exactly what I pay, to the penny.

Now some will say, "not everyone can pay that much."

And I reply, "they should be whipped until they do."

[Johnny P]

While sales tax might appear regressive, it is a tax that everyone has to pay. People that don't own any property get to vote on raising your property tax, which is then applied to only those that own property.

[Vern Humphrey]

Pretty much like it is today -- slugs who don't work vote to raise YOUR taxes,

[RED]

Hey Red! If your insurance premium increased by $300 a month due to that ticket I would think you need a new insurance company and a new agent. I don't know of any company that would increase the premium over that type of violation. Is there more to the story? What was your record at that time?

Bull!!! Read what I said!' My insurance increased $300 every 6 months not every month! I have never fought a ticket when I was guilty. When a town with 230 population tickets, all out of state cars. They are highway robbers not cops. My cost is over $15,000 in 30 years to these highway robbers pisses me off.

Oh BTW, I drove over 50,000 miles every year driving Chevy Malibus and Ford Crown Vics. My company car was licensed and leased in Illinois, or Iowa. I was working in MO, AR, KY, TN, KS, and MS. I never had a ticket in Iowa or Illinois!

[JohnMOhio]

Red, hate to say this but I just looked and you did write that it increased by "$300 every month." That is why I questioned that amount of increase and questioned the possibility of something else on your record. I meant no disrespect. Just trying to help after being in the business 40 plus years.

[Johnny P]

Years ago my dad went to an out of state gun show. On the way down he got a speeding ticket in a small town in the other state. On the way back he was careful to keep his speed just below the posted speed limit in the same town, but got another ticket for speeding. It's all about the revenue.

[JohnMOhio]

JP, your right when it comes to some places of our country. They don't have enough, I would estimate, tax revenue to support the small town or village. That is their mode to supplement it. It is not right but it happens. I don't know how we would be able to get around it. The only way I think it can be combated it two cameras. One on the road ahead and one recording your speed, both showing date and time. But, who is running the traffic court. A real judge or the Mayor of the town? Just some thought at this moment.

[S.A. Boggs]

After all this new addition my property taxes went up $30.00 and I am not complaining. In our state, for those under a certain financial level, we can claim a homestead exemption on our home, and this is what I did when I turned 65. If I told what I pay, someone would disagree as it is not possible. As for a speeding ticket, I can't peddle that fast anymore.
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

My property taxes are $1,200 on 160 acres and a five bedroom house. My brother lived in Texas, and when I told him that, he cried.

[Allen]

My property taxes are $1,200 on 160 acres and a five bedroom house. My brother lived in Texas, and when I told him that, he cried.

That's my point. You and I know where this money is going but how do politicians (at any level of government) explain it?

Nothing bought with taxed dollars should be continued to be taxed. It's like buying a vacuum cleaner (with taxed dollars) and then having to pay taxes to own it.

[Allen]

After all this new addition my property taxes went up $30.00 and I am not complaining.

Welcome back again.

Not complaining but why not? What did the gov't do to justify the extra $30? You elected on your own to add on using your money that you pay taxes on. Any labor you may have bought from a licensed contractor was taxed as well.

Are you more apt to call the police now? Would it cost more for the fire dept to extinguish a fire now? Have you added extra kids to the public school system? That's all the politicians can come up with for the purpose of prop taxes.

Did the addition make your property value go up? Most probably but how does that benefit you while you are living there? When or if sold the price will be higher and whoever buys it will pay more with more taxed dollars. Money you receive will be taxed as well.

[S.A. Boggs]

On my 4,000 square foot cabin and modest acreage we pay $180.00 school tax, due to having the Ohio homestead exemption and retirement income little else. Our property was just recently redone, hence the increase in school tax. I could get free dog tags for my two service buddies, but I buy tags anyway to help out our no kill shelter. God has provided much for me, more then I deserve so no squawk on what I do need to spend.
In the home stretch on finishing the interior of the cabin has taken up some of my time. Also, learning to be a better cook and getting the proper equipment. I love French cooking and learning to do better. All of my cooking is done from scratch, no mixes. Just took deliver on our years' worth of pork and beef, already had the poultry. I order and pay a year in advance to get what I want at a reasonable price and HOW I WANT THE MEAT PROCESSED. The meat is raised/processed by my Amish friends, one who does it commercially for a select few "English" and other breather. Pork was .59 per pound and beef was $4.30/lb. I always buy a whole pig/steer, which is pasture grown and lives a good life. I buy 15 dozen eggs per month, and they go good with the bacon.
Sam

[Allen]

Be careful what you state. You may get taxed for cooking.

Back to property tax, why tax property owners for public school admission? I mean, what's the relationship and why should someone who owns 4000 acres pay more than someone who has 1/4 acre? Does the person with 4000 acres grow kids to pack into the schools?

The school system should be based upon usury. The more kids you have the more you pay for their education. Some people have no kids at all.

Remember, I pay property taxes on minerals under the ground in Texas. The people who own the land pay property taxes on the land. I don't live in TX and have never used their police, fire dept or schools. If any minerals (oil) is pumped out I pay taxes on it as income. Point is, why am I paying these taxes in TX? What's the justification or excuse?

[Johnny P]

Texas has no income tax unless they have recently changed. Have a good friend that lives in Rockwall, and said while no income tax they make it up on property tax.

[oscars]

I pay $5000 a year property tax on a house assessed at $500,000 in central Maryland. A colleague of mine pays $10,000 a year for a similarly assessed house in College Station, Texas. Both of use fund, what we consider, very good school systems. Now, back to Arkansas. The very public high school my kids graduated from score 100 points higher than Haas Hall charter schools in Bentonville and Fayettville, Arkansas, which are, supposedly, selective admissions with the highest SAT scores in Arkansas. Moral of the story, you get what you pay for.

[Allen]

I pay $5000 a year property tax on a house assessed at $500,000 in central Maryland. A colleague of mine pays $10,000 a year for a similarly assessed house in College Station, Texas. Both of use fund, what we consider, very good school systems. Now, back to Arkansas. The very public high school my kids graduated from score 100 points higher than Haas Hall charter schools in Bentonville and Fayettville, Arkansas, which are, supposedly, selective admissions with the highest SAT scores in Arkansas. Moral of the story, you get what you pay for.

But why tax your property for school money? As said before, some pay a lot, some pay nothing. Those who pay nothing usually have the most kids in school.

[bruce]

Re: Tax, i.e., school, etc. It is what it is. The overwhelming vast majority of people agree to this arrangement by their vote for a particular candidate/party. Ours is a modified democracy. At the local level we vote for those who decide what will be done about fire, police, streets, schools, hospitals, parks, etc. Some folks want items not included in the budget. Some want more of items already on the budget. Some ... want less. Personally, I do not want to live in a community with the bare minimum of govt. services. My wife and I have two homes. Consider that we pay a fair amount. When we retired, we qualified for one homestead exemption. That's cool. We have two grown daughters. We have four grandchildren. We want them to have access to good pre-K, Kindergarten and of course elementary and secondary schools. We want good fire and police service, roads, etc. None of this is free. Have never made a fire call. Have never made a police call. Never needed to. Right down the street, neighbors have had need of the fire and police. We all pay for just such needs. About the best plan possible. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[Allen]

Re: Tax, i.e., school, etc. It is what it is. The overwhelming vast majority of people agree to this arrangement by their vote for a particular candidate/party.

I agree with you Bruce but we never get a choice of a candidate who opposes property tax. Most never mention it, even wanting to reduce prop tax.

Schools, hospitals, fire depts and police depts have all become big businesses in large cities due to all the windfall tax money given to them.

Point is. We need a different form of taxation. Stop taxing what we already own and paid for with taxed dollars. Tax other items that would distribute $ more fairly and equally. Better yet reduce all taxes and reduce big government at all levels.

Property tax is just another form of welfare. Those that have bought/worked for/inherited have to pay for those who have done nothing, own nothing, will not work, will not buy, and tend to be the ones overloading our resources.

[Allen]

As it is our land and homes can be taken away from us due to not paying property taxes.

Some of us may fall on hard times OR the gov't may decide to raise taxes to the point you can't afford to own your land that you have already paid for and own. I see that every day where residential property is re-zoned into commercial property.

There's no "checks and balances". The gov't can do anything they wish with no recourse or accountability.

[S.A. Boggs]

Death and taxes are the only two sure things in life. :evil6:
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

Death and taxes are the only two sure things in life. :evil6:
Sam

The difference is that death doesn't get worse with every session of the legislature.

[S.A. Boggs]

The difference is that death doesn't get worse with every session of the legislature.
Very astute Vern!
Sam

[Allen]

In other words a person can be taxed to death but there is never a death to taxes.

Again. Taxes I understand (to limited $) but question the taxing of land/homes.

[Allen]

Our once small town is now a city, They have the plans for a new elaborate city hall complex. Many of the older residents are against it but of course now make up the minority.

If it were actually needed that would be one thing but that's not the case. What they operate in now is appropriate. (who are they trying to impress ??)

Artist renditions of the complex have been posted in the local news sites. My wife asked me "how in the world can they afford this?" I reminded her about property taxes. Rather than cut taxes they just hunt for ways to spend what they are already taking in. If the $ balance gets too high they can always stuff some of it into the "emergency fund" or "general fund".

These are "funds" that no taxpayer ever see---no one knows how much goes into it, comes out, or goes to whom. It's no wonder why so many want to go into politics (at any level) and once they do they never leave.

[Vern Humphrey]

That is why I REFUSE to live in a city, town or village. If forced to live in a neighborhood with a Homeowner's association, I'd probably go berserk,

[Allen]

That is why I REFUSE to live in a city, town or village. If forced to live in a neighborhood with a Homeowner's association, I'd probably go berserk,

I know what you mean but I live out of city limits too. City water and fire dept services come from a nearby city. Police do come to our area but can refuse since it is the territory of the county (sheriff's dept). Property tax is determined by the county.

HOA fee's ARE a tremendous rip-off. It all began with the realtors who were selling subdivision lots to make the place look pretty till the last lot was sold then they would pull the plug and let everything grow up in weeds. Property owners pretty much kept their areas neat and sometimes their next door neighbors. Soon the realtors discovered this hidden goldmine that they could hire school kids to mow the sidewalks and charge (as in force) the homeowners a monthly fee.

Some subdivisions have golf courses, community swimming pools and rec rooms. While these amenities were advertised to sell the lots likewise the homeowners end up having to pay inflated HOA fees to maintain them even though they may not ever use them. So like property tax they pay for all of this via higher prices then they pay for it again to maintain it.

[bruce]

Re: HOA fees. Probably are some HOA's that are poorly run. About like anything else involving people. Have lived in communities where standards were poorly enforced. No one wants to sink money into such a place. Have lived in some places where the standards were enforced by the municipality. Usually worked out fine. Last house we had, the HOA could get a bit frisky. Will say, everyone kept their place up to standards agreed upon at purchase. Standards were enforced regardless of what type house or location within the subdivision. Basically you couldn't rebuild a car in the driveway, had to keep shrubbery trimmed and grass cut, etc. Not a big deal. Now retired. Live in a condominium w/ a HOA. Outside of condos, lawns, shrubbery, etc. stays nice. Also have playgrounds, very nice swimming pool, tennis courts, nice areas for grilling, very well maintained parking areas, no crazy loud jacked up music in the middle of the night, etc. Happy not to have to deal with a 5 acre yard, jungle of bushes, etc. All in all, its a good deal. Sincerely. bruce.

[Vern Humphrey]

[QUOTE=Allen;657151]I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.

[quote]

Sales taxes are regressive -- the poor pay more, percentage-wise than the rich.

[Allen]

[QUOTE=Allen;657151]I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.

[quote]

Sales taxes are regressive -- the poor pay more, percentage-wise than the rich.

Might be one of many incentives for the poor to become rich or richer as in bettering themselves. Some of the poor want to be poor since so much is done for them.

[Vern Humphrey]

[QUOTE=Vern Humphrey;657734][QUOTE=Allen;657151]I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.



Might be one of many incentives for the poor to become rich or richer as in bettering themselves. Some of the poor want to be poor since so much is done for them.

What is done for the poor is being done to buy their votes -- and to provide jobs for poverty bureaucrats.

[Mark in Ottawa]

I just got an interesting statement from our county assessor. 2024 my houses FCV (full cash value) is right on what I consider is accurate. $430,000. Then there's the estimate for 2025. The FCV drops $58,000. I tried to go on line but that's too tough for me to figure out. If you call the ph. no., well, I stayed on the phone for fifteen minutes and gave up.
I'm not overly concerned about any of it.
Oh and that's not what the tax is based on. It went up 5%.

Depending on where you are, municpal taxes are not based on fair market value (or full cash value). They are based on "assessed" value where the assessed value is the fair market value in a particular year and that year is used for the whole municiplity. Assessed value does not change as market value changes but is held steady for many years. This allows the system to rate the value of your house to other similar houses without having to worry about the volatility of the market. Things that do cause the assessed value to change are changes to the house itself (say adding a swimming pool or doing a renovation or building an addition)

[RED]

Years ago my dad went to an out of state gun show. On the way down he got a speeding ticket in a small town in the other state. On the way back he was careful to keep his speed just below the posted speed limit in the same town, but got another ticket for speeding. It's all about the revenue.

EXACTLY!

[RED]

[QUOTE=Allen;657151]I agree that taxes should be paid in the form of sales tax. That way everyone pays.

[quote]

Sales taxes are regressive -- the poor pay more, percentage-wise than the rich.

Because the poor buy more, a higher percentage of their income. I have a very small income, but I also own property and my property taxes plus sales taxes combined are almost 66% of that income. How many poor people pay that much of their income.

[Former Cav]

For the 1st time in my life I get a break on my taxes on my home in TX. Because I am a 100% disabled vet and over 65 I pay 0 for our home. I get FREE license plates on one vehicle also. Otherwise, our taxes on our home would be about 2.8% of the value of the house. 550K so it would be about 15.5K then there is also a MUD tax. Municipal Utitility District to pay for roads and sewers (the developer skates on that) so that is about $1300 per year for an indefinite amount of time. Sales tax is about 9% roughly. No income tax but we are retired.
When we lived in MN, from birthdate in 1946 to 2005, the taxes on our home went up $500 a year on top of the $4800 we were paying on a like valued home (about 550K). This was a BOND for schools The school portion was about 3600 out of the 4800. The bond was for 10 years! At the end of THREE years, they came back with their hands out again as they spent all 10 years worth (in advance, righto!!!). Of course, all the people with kids voted for it. So our taxes went up about another $500 a year. I've had ONE kid in my lifetime and I've paid for his schooling for about 74 years (well 74 minus the first 18 of my life, call it 56 years). He still doesn't know $hit too !! Good schools or skrewells as Rush used to call them.ds MN also had a sales tax between 8-9 percent, and income tax, and about a $600 dollar license plate tax on a new 2004 expedition in 2004. All the years that I worked, I just figured that my take home pay was about 65% of the "before tax" amount. Sales tax and other "usage taxes" on top of that.
Count your blessings.
In Sweden in 03, wifes cousins were paying a Federal 35% VAT (value added tax), a Provincial (like state) 25% VAT and city 14-18% VAT. So that is 74 to 78 percent tax. A bottle of NEAR beer over there was like 3 Euros (in 03 it was 1.33 dollar to 1 Euro). That was for a 12 oz bottle of beer (a little less, 350ML or something).
A good beer, like an Orval at about 7-8% alcohol was like 10 Euro's. for an 11 OZ bottle.!!