Reloading .303 cases

I reload .303 British cartridges and have been using PPU brass because the cases weigh more than cases made by some of the other cartridge manufacturers. From my own experience - 3% heavier than Remington Core-Lokt and 9% heavier than Winchester Super-X. The basic thinking here is the heavier weight translates to slightly thicker walls of the PPU case which should hold up better/longer than thinner cases if the cases are neck sized only and fired from the same rifle. The PPU cases I've fired show no sign of excessive stretching after multiple reloading.

Does anyone have any fired Mk 7 .303 British cases on hand? I'm curious to know how the weight of a Mk 7 case compares to the weight of a PPU case (in grains).

Have some unfired(firing doesn't change the case weight), IVI, ball cases at home. Even know where they and my scale are. Be tomorrow.
Mind you, the weight of the PPU case only means they're a bit thicker than American commercial brands.

I think you'll find just as much variation among different makes of "Mk 7" cases as among commercial cases. When comparing weights, don't forget to take the extra mass of Berdan anvils into consideration. Here are some examples; the Berdan cases are once-fired and the Boxer ones retired after many loadings -

http://i49.tinypic.com/29eovnr.jpg

Note how sometimes a weight difference may be more influenced by the height of the solid web than by wall thickness. Compare, for instance, the commercial W-W case to the WRA 1943 (originally a "Mk 7" load).

It's a common error to think that thickness or weight is a primary factor in case longevity. Brass composition/hardness, chamber finish, action type, peak pressure, and presence/absence of lubricant can have far greater influence. One example -

http://i44.tinypic.com/afk9ia.jpg
(Case #1, fired dry, was so tightly stuck in chamber after separation that a chamber cast was needed to remove it. Loads were the same for both cases, as was the neck-only sizing operation.)

Parashooter,

Thanks for the interesting reply. I agree there are other things to consider that may affect weight and the wall strength of a case. But notice that the W-W Super case that experienced case-head separation in your illustration is a Winchester Super-X and is the lightest of the three cases I've been reloading.

My interest as a reloader of .303 British is to determine if any commercial ammo currently available comes close to the original dimensions or specs of the Mk 7 military case.

I noticed PPU's higher case weight difference vs. the others shortly after I began reloading and so I primarily shoot the reloaded and heavier PPU cases. I check every case for a stretch groove before reloading and haven't had to discard any so far. My No.4 head space is within military spec and I neck size only. I've probably reloaded some of the PPU cases five or six times.

What kind of lubricant is best to use on cartridges?

Merc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merc

My interest as a reloader of .303 British is to determine if any commercial ammo currently available comes close to the original dimensions or specs of the Mk 7 military case.

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Please understand that Mark VII ("Mk 7") is the designation for a complete round, not the case. Same case is used for earlier and later Marks. The WRA 43 Boxer case shown above is from Mark VIIz ammunition loaded in the USA for the UK during WWII, but it's very different from the Kynoch or Radway Green Berdan cases from Mark VII ammunition.

All commercial cases made to SAAMI or CIP specs have, within allowable tolerances, the same exterior dimensions as the military cases designed to fit normal military chambers. As you can see in the photo, there is some variation in interior dimensions.

The Berdan anvil adds mass, making direct weight comparison of Berdan and Boxer cases problematical. This is slightly mitigated by weighing primed cases (or adding a primer to the pan with unprimed specimens), allowing the Boxer anvil to be included.

Sample primed weight, grains -
K50 - 184
PPU - 178
F-C - 174
R-P - 165
W-W - 164

Parashooter,

Thanks. Great explanation. No. 4s are known for generous chamber space so it would be nice to be able to shoot a commercial cartridge that has the capability to stand up to all that expansion. The PPU brass has done it so far.

The commercial ammo that's available today in .303 British is somewhat limited, hence the reloading. I tend to keep my reloads lighter than factory loads and that probably helps with brass longevity but also lowered recoil and actually improved accuracy.

The lubricant that you mentioned - is it the same as the case oil used with full length dies? I have a wax lubricant that's also used with full length dies.

Merc

IIRC isn't it possible to adjust headspace on Lee-Enfields by switching bolt heads?

Often the problem that produces blown out .303 cases isn't excess headspace but rather war time chambers. Wartime chambers tend to be oversize which doesn't matter a whole lot with a rimed cartridge. The headspace on my old 1917 No I Mk III which I got fresh from FTR was measured by a gunsmith at .070 or quite OK, the fired cases look like classic examples of excessive headspace. The problem in this case isn't the headspace but the very generous chamber. Peace time rifles are another story, My No 4 Mk II which came new in the wrap produces fired cases that look like the came in a bag on new brass.

I full length resize because my hand loads will be used in both rifles. I have a bunch of brass from when I wasn't reloading but wasn't throwing any away either. Two reloads is max with me because of the chamber differences in the two rifles, and because I hand load to Mil Spec. velocities with 174 gr bullets.

I believe it is possible to adjust head space with different bolt heads. Not real sure if it's a direct replacement meaning it may take an experienced 'smith to get it right. I saw a #3 bolt head on eBay a while back. Never saw one before and probably won't see another for quite a while. Asking price was $175. Lots of #1s and #2s on eBay and dealers sights.

Remember that .070" is the commercial head space field gauge dimension and .074" is the military head space field gauge dimension. My No. 4 closes to about 80% on a .074" gauge and closes completely on a .070" gauge but still shoots the heavier neck sized brass with light loads well without becoming over-stretched. I'll continue to reload the same cases until I start to see stretching problems starting to occur.

Merc

Art,

I have a tendency to shoot what ever they have on the shelf at my local Cabelas, in my case, it was 150 gr flat base SP bullets. They seem to do really well with a starting powder load plus 1 gr. of BLC-(2). I recently ordered a box of 174 gr boat tail FMJ bullets just to try something different.

Merc

Watch for loose groups and keyholing when using BT's. Not all Enfields like them once they've had a bit of throat wear. No4's do better than older SMLE's which have been fired with Cordite loads and suffered more erosion. Flat Base bullets in the 303 are the rule of thumb.

JB,

What you're saying might explain a lot. I bought eight boxes of .303 British ammo, all 174 gr BT FMJ when I first bought the No.4 in 2014 and blamed all of the bad shooting I was doing on my inability to solve the iron ladder sight. I began reloading with 150 gr flat base soft points about the same time I installed a bolt-on Addley Precision scope mount and Bushnell scope on the No. 4 and, once zeroed, I found it to be very accurate at 100 yards which is the maximum target distance at the gun club I belong to. I also found that the 150 gr flat base soft points shoot the best in my rifle with one grain over the starting powder load. That's the nice part about this and other forums. The wealth of knowledge out there is amazing.

I might also add - Reloading isn't always done for economical reasons. I probably spend more reloading on a per round basis than a box of PPU .303 British costs per round. However, with a little dumb luck, I stumbled across a combination of bullet type and BLC-(2) powder that works very well in my No. 4. I call it dumb luck because I had no advance knowledge that 150 gr flat base bullets would work so well. They were simply the only bullets that Cabelas had in .303 British on the shelf.

Merc

I retired a 1943 British one because I only got 3 reloads on the brass. I now use a Indian made in1967 and get more reloads from the brass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Art

Often the problem that produces blown out .303 cases isn't excess headspace but rather war time chambers. Wartime chambers tend to be oversize which doesn't matter a whole lot with a rimed cartridge. The headspace on my old 1917 No I Mk III which I got fresh from FTR was measured by a gunsmith at .070 or quite OK, the fired cases look like classic examples of excessive headspace. The problem in this case isn't the headspace but the very generous chamber. Peace time rifles are another story, My No 4 Mk II which came new in the wrap produces fired cases that look like the came in a bag on new brass.

I full length resize because my hand loads will be used in both rifles. I have a bunch of brass from when I wasn't reloading but wasn't throwing any away either. Two reloads is max with me because of the chamber differences in the two rifles, and because I hand load to Mil Spec. velocities with 174 gr bullets.

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I don't know if the Lee Enfield was subjected to "hogged out" chambers, but the Ross certainly was. My .303 M1905 Ross produces fired cases that look like .303 Epps!

This was, I understand, an attempt to prevent cases from sticking in the chambers, or from not fully chambering under filthy trench conditions.

Enfields were subjected to "hogged out" chambers in a sense and the rifles will be marked in some cases. The asterisks on the Knock's Form in a number ranging from 1 to 3 indicating the severity of rust or nicks found in the chamber. Armorers had to polish those problems away and the metal had to go somewhere. Usually not a problem and are safe, but can be annoying for the reloader.

The wartime rifles were chambered to spec. (All of them are war rifles) However they were subjected to more rigors and problems. I think that's where the "oversized wartime chamber" story comes from.

As I say, I don't know about Lee Enfields, but the Ross was certainly hogged out -- you have only to look at the ejected cases.

Knowing where they were didn't help. snicker.
Stuff is 1944 DZ. Weighed 4 randomly selected cases sans primer. Amazing how consistent they are.
167.7
167.0
168.5
167.5
"...adjust head space with different bolt heads..." Yep. Just take one off and put the other one on. Check with gauges. Not bits of tape, empty cases, live rounds, wads of gum or anything else.
"...if any commercial ammo currently available comes close to..." Isn't important.

Go to the Mauser Rifle section of this forum and check out the "Spanish Mauser 7X57 Reloads" topic. I started the topic and got some excellent advice on how to check for throat wear by measuring "jump" which is the distance the bullet must travel to reach the rifling when it is fired. This one deserves a topic of its own but is buried in the current thread.

Merc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunray

Knowing where they were didn't help. snicker.
Stuff is 1944 DZ. Weighed 4 randomly selected cases sans primer. Amazing how consistent they are.
167.7
167.0
168.5
167.5
"...adjust head space with different bolt heads..." Yep. Just take one off and put the other one on. Check with gauges. Not bits of tape, empty cases, live rounds, wads of gum or anything else.
"...if any commercial ammo currently available comes close to..." Isn't important.

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That is interesting. I would have thought the military cases would have been heavier than the commercial cases. Then again, they only had to endure one shot and weren't reloaded although the case head extractor was a common tool so it must have been a problem to some degree. I bought one and may never need it as long as I continue to neck size.

The bolt heads are an easy enough part to replace. The resulting new head space dimension will definitely require a head space field gauge test. Can't do one without the other.

Merc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merc

That is interesting. I would have thought the military cases would have been heavier than the commercial cases. Then again, they only had to endure one shot and weren't reloaded although the case head extractor was a common tool so it must have been a problem to some degree. I bought one and may never need it as long as I continue to neck size.

The bolt heads are an easy enough part to replace. The resulting new head space dimension will definitely require a head space field gauge test. Can't do one without the other.

Merc

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If you see a bright ring around the case just ahead of the extractor groove, trash that case. You can double check with a bent paper clip -- inside the case you can feel a groove at that point, which is incipient case head separation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vern Humphrey

If you see a bright ring around the case just ahead of the extractor groove, trash that case. You can double check with a bent paper clip -- inside the case you can feel a groove at that point, which is incipient case head separation.

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Vern,

I saw the same video of that Canadian fellow. He has some great tips. I use a thin coat hanger wire sharpened to a point and bent at the tip to probe the internal case walls for the groove. I've heard of some guys using long hat pins or safety pins saying they're more sensitive. I'll have to try a pin the next time I reload. I've reloaded a couple hundred .303, 7mm and 30-06 cases and the next grooved case I find will be my first.

I hear the same bent coat hanger wire can also pull out separated cases that stick inside the chamber. Paint can openers will do the same thing but you need to grind them down a bit so the hook goes out past the neck opening and grabs the rim. Just make sure they aren't sharp enough to scratch the inside of the chamber. I bought an extractor on eBay right after I bought my No. 4 just to have one but have never used it.

I resize the case necks only when reloading and believe that's the way to go. One expansion and done.

Merc

I have broken shell extractors for .303, .223 and .30-06 /308. I've had to use them a little.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joem

I have broken shell extractors for .303, .223 and .30-06 /308. I've had to use them a little.

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We've been discussing the integrity of the lighter vs heavier cases here and their ability to handle expansion. Are you reloading? I contend that heavier cases hold up better in older military rifles when neck sized only.

I got some great advice concerning a quick and easy way to measure bore throat erosion that's posted on this forum under Mauser Rifles - Spanish Mauser 7X57 Reloads.

Merc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merc

Vern,

I saw the same video of that Canadian fellow. He has some great tips. I use a thin coat hanger wire sharpened to a point and bent at the tip to probe the internal case walls for the groove. I've heard of some guys using long hat pins or safety pins saying they're more sensitive. I'll have to try a pin the next time I reload. I've reloaded a couple hundred .303, 7mm and 30-06 cases and the next grooved case I find will be my first.

I hear the same bent coat hanger wire can also pull out separated cases that stick inside the chamber. Paint can openers will do the same thing but you need to grind them down a bit so the hook goes out past the neck opening and grabs the rim. Just make sure they aren't sharp enough to scratch the inside of the chamber. I bought an extractor on eBay right after I bought my No. 4 just to have one but have never used it.

I resize the case necks only when reloading and believe that's the way to go. One expansion and done.

Merc

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One of the simplest ways to get a case with a separated head out of the chamber is run a cleaning rod with a bronze bore brush through from the muzzle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vern Humphrey

One of the simplest ways to get a case with a separated head out of the chamber is run a cleaning rod with a bronze bore brush through from the muzzle.

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I've heard of that and can understand how a bore brush would work. I'll have several options if that ever happens but as previously mentioned, I only reload the heavier cases which seem to hold up better. I also think pushing or pulling the separated case out by the neck rim would be effective although sometimes they become jammed in the receiver. There's a video on the internet of a guy who has an extractor wedged tightly into a jammed separated case and is hammering on the bolt handle trying to break it loose. Ugly to watch. I'll see if it's stiil up on YouTube and put it up.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqb0u...&nohtml5=False

Merc

"Don't use force. Just get a bigger hammer.":evil6:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merc

I reload .303 British cartridges and have been using PPU brass because the cases weigh more than cases made by some of the other cartridge manufacturers. From my own experience - 3% heavier than Remington Core-Lokt and 9% heavier than Winchester Super-X. The basic thinking here is the heavier weight translates to slightly thicker walls of the PPU case which should hold up better/longer than thinner cases if the cases are neck sized only and fired from the same rifle. The PPU cases I've fired show no sign of excessive stretching after multiple reloading.

Does anyone have any fired Mk 7 .303 British cases on hand? I'm curious to know how the weight of a Mk 7 case compares to the weight of a PPU case (in grains).

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Prvi Partizan .303 cases are one of the best cases for reloading, they have thicker rims than American made cases, their base diameter is larger and the case is .010 thicker in the base web area.

Below both factory loaded cases were fired in the same Enfield rifle, and as you cans see the Prvi Parizan has a larger base diameter. Add this the thicker case walls in the base and the thicker rims and you have a .303 cases built Ford Truck Tough. :icon_lol:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...psoxvc4fwv.jpg

In 1914 the Enfield chamber were reamed larger in diameter and also the chamber shoulder was moved forward. This was done for two reasons, a ammunition scandal over who was awarded contracts to make .303 ammunition. And some of the ammunition was so poorly made it would not chamber in existing chambers. Another reason was the dirty, muddy conditions of trench warfare that created chambering problems.

When you add this to the fact that American commercial .303 British cases are not made to military standards "some cases" are short lived when reloaded.

Below a Remington .303 British case compared to South African surplus .303 British. The Prvi Partizan cases are made similar to the way a Lake City 7.62 military case is made and thicker in the base of the case.

The South African case is over .005 thicker in the base.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...psxy8vz67v.jpg

The base is larger in diameter.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...pskordsiz6.jpg

And the rim is .004 thicker.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...psnrui02ll.jpg

Bottom line with Prvi Partizan .303 cases I have gotten over 30 reloads by neck sizing only and not shooting maximum loads.

Big Ed,

Thanks for the info on PPU cases. I suspected they were superior by their weight and the way they react to being fired multiple times. Neck sizing is the only way to go.

Merc

The strange part is the Greek HXP cases are also very good for reloading and last a long time. And the HXP brass is more flexible and more durable than any American made brass.
The problem is the HXP brass is harder to find and thankfully Prvi Partizan is the best of the newer made .303 cases and lasts well when reload also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigedp51

The strange part is the Greek HXP cases are also very good for reloading and last a long time. And the HXP brass is more flexible and more durable than any American made brass.
The problem is the HXP brass is harder to find and thankfully Prvi Partizan is the best of the newer made .303 cases and lasts well when reload also.

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The PPU ammo has the unusual combination of being decent shooting with reloadable brass while remaining very competitively priced. I reload my ammo in order to work around the various preferences of each antique military rifle I own. It really isn't cheaper to reload. In fact, at the end of the day, I'm probably spending more to reload PPU brass than buying PPU factory loads. It's fun, I enjoy doing it and I like the results. Hobbies are rarely cheap.

Merc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Merc

The PPU ammo has the unusual combination of being decent shooting with reloadable brass while remaining very competitively priced. I reload my ammo in order to work around the various preferences of each antique military rifle I own. Hobbies are rarely cheap.

Merc

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Yep. Nailed that one Merc