WWII Ithaca M37 - Was it a Training Shotgun ?

Hey Guys,
I have an Ithaca M37 12 ga. shotgun that is not in its original configuration.
Would you care to speculate on what that configuration was?

Some Background.
I was working in a big shop and this guy says he's got a military shotgun from Viet Nam.
Said, his dad had bought it many years ago at a flea market in Petaluma CA.
After getting a brief description of it, and that it was an Ithaca M37, I gave him the $50 bucks he wanted for it on the spot.
First thing I saw when I looked at it was the / UNITED STATED PROPERTY / P / R.L.B. with Ordnance Bomb / stamped into the receiver.
I Was Smiling, Big Time.
It has a deeply blued steel barrel and receiver with game scenes.
A beautiful colored and grained butt stock with a checkered pistol grip capped with a black plastic cap.
I was promised the wooden fore end and the other screw in chokes, but they never materialized.

In a June, 1995 article in "The American Rifleman" magazine, titled "World War II G.I. Shotguns", by Bruce Canfield, he writes on page 44,

"That in Nov. 1941, guns procured from Ithaca by the US government included commercial guns with engraved receiver game scenes."

He also has a photo of a 20 inch barreled M37 w/game scene and a checkered pistol grip and fore end.

In a May, 2015, article in "The American Rifleman" magazine, titled "Ithaca Earns Its Stripes" , by Bruce Canfield, on page 64,

he shows a photo of a long barreled training shotgun with game scene, checkered pistol grip and cannalured fore end.

a link to a Bruce Canfield article in The American Rifleman mag online
://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/18/the-ithaca-model-37-in-us-military-service/

Attachment 47336Attachment 47337Attachment 47338Attachment 47339Attachment 47340

I wonder if my now, 18 inch barreled Ithaca M37, started out as a long gun, and was swept up in the WWII war effort
and was later modified with the -PATTERNATOR- choke system, probably on the west coast.
It was MFD. BY / WISLER WESTERN ARMS CO. / S.F. CAL.

I think it was a long gun because it had/has a full choked barrel. I don't think a 20 inch barreled riot gun would have a full choke.

It came to me with a Ithaca Gun Co. black plastic stock with a pistol grip like an AR-15 on it. The wood stock was in a paper bag.
Makes me shudder to think that the beautiful butt stock could have been lost like the fore end was.
It came with the, White Line / Trade Mark / Pachmayr Gun Works / Los Angeles 15, California U.S.A. marked butt pad.
It might be old too but probably not original to the gun.

I feel very fortunate to have a martial shotgun in my modest martial arms collection. I had written it off as too expensive.
I think that "if" it still had its long barrel and wooden fore end, it would be unique example of a martial shotgun.
But I don't know, maybe there are lots of training shotguns still in existence.
But there couldn't have been too many off these Ithaca Commercial / Martial shotguns to begin with.

Well, I will add 5 photos and see what you think.
I have 3 more photos but I'll have to put them in a reply to my own post.

Thanks,
Take Care - Stay Well,
jm

Hey Guys,
Here are the 3 other photographs.

Attachment 47341Attachment 47342Attachment 47343

I like to shoot this shotgun, It's So Smooth, and patterns 00 Buck Very Well.

Thanks,
Take Care, Stay Well,
jm

As you suspect, it was originally a 30" barrel and the pad is not original.
The thing that is interesting about this gun is the "United States Property" marking.
Long barrel training guns with RLB marks are fairly common, the added "United States Property" marks are unusual.
I have seen probably 4 of them over the years, and I own one of them.
I would have to check the records, but I think this group was shipped to Springfield Armory, just before the war.
As you suspect, it has zero collector interest due to the mods and condition, but enjoy shooting and owning it.

Thanks scosgt for the reply.
The possible Springfield Armory connection would make it's history even more interesting.
All the photos in the Canfield articles show shotguns stamped with U.S., + the proof P, R.L.B. and the bomb.
The plot thickens.
As you can tell, I really like shotgun just as it is, so more history just sweetens the pot.
Thanks Again,
Stay Well,
jm

If you care to share the complete serial number one of us may be able to tell you exactly when it was shipped and to where.

That would be Real Cool.
I'm usually not shy about posting serial No. stuff.
I'm new to this Forum though.
It's 50842.
I did not know information like that was known.
I read yesterday online at American Rifleman's article archive,
that Ithaca kept good records.
I hope this is one of them.
Thanks,
Take Care,
Stay Well,
jm

Serial No. 50842 was shipped from the factory on Dec. 12, 1941, to Springfield Armory, Springfield, Mass. It was part of a 200 gun shipment, all of which were 12 gage 30 inch barrel Model 37 shotguns.

WOW!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

Serial No. 50842 was shipped from the factory on Dec. 12, 1941, to Springfield Armory, Springfield, Mass. It was part of a 200 gun shipment, all of which were 12 gage 30 inch barrel Model 37 shotguns.

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And they may be the only ones with the dual markings, based on my observations over many years.

I have data on one with the "United States Property" mark on both the receiver and barrel as well as P proof marks on the receiver and barrel, but no other martial markings (i.e., no RLB or Ordnance bomb marks).

Hey Tom,
That's more than speculation, this shotgun has a history. The Real Deal.
Shipped the same week as Pearl Harbor.
To think, someone, almost 80 years ago, noted down this little factoid in a ledger.
It was used a few times for accounting and such, maybe. Until Now.
It becomes The useful fact to identify A shotgun in That shipment.
This shotgun Is history. I'll just admire it all the more. Chopped up as it may be. It's a Hella Shotgun!

Some Questions:
easy one first;

What was the original butt plate like?

Did Roy L. Brolin stamp it before it left Ithaca ?

Was the UNITED STATES PROPERTY stamped at Springfield Armory?

Are there any other known shotguns in this lot stamped with UNITED STATES PROPERTY ?
ie: Is the shotgun that scosgt owns, in this lot as well?

Are all 200 separate serial Numbers listed in the record for Dec. 12, 1941?

What did Springfield Armory do with the 200 sporting shotguns?

Well, thats enough for now.
If I think of any more, I'll keep 'em to myself. for now.
What reference book would you recommend.?
Thanks,
Stay Well.
jm

The actual inspector was a Colonel or general and did not personally stamp anything.
The acceptance marks were done at Ithaca.
It is unknown where the US Property marks were done, they appear to be factory. Possibly that particular work order specified it, and later to save money they no longer bothered.
Or maybe SA did not like the fact they were not US marked so they did it.
No one knows. Later Ithacas only have the RLB (and in one rare case FJA).

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom Doniphon

I have data on one with the "United States Property" mark on both the receiver and barrel as well as P proof marks on the receiver and barrel, but no other martial markings (i.e., no RLB or Ordnance bomb marks).

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Mine has both, I think it is from the same batch.

The butt plate should be hard rubber with horizontal lines between the screws and marked "Ithaca Gun Co. Inc." above the lower screw.

Don't know if any of the other guns in the shipment were marked with the "United States Property" mark. It seems that only some very early Model 37s were marked that way. As scogt mentioned, later long barreled Model 37s (and trench guns) are marked with an RLB inspector mark, Ordnance bomb and P proof on the receiver and a P proof on the barrel.

Yes, the serial number of all 200 guns in the shipment are listed in the records.

Thanks You Guys,
This is extraordinarily interesting to me.

It seems that our UNITED STATES PROPERTY marked M37 Ithaca's are part of a very small club.
I do not have a proof "P" on the barrel. The "Proof Tested" stamp looks like Ithaca's factory mark to me.
Attachment 47363

Interestingly, is if I look right between the barrel and the mag tube
there is something the size of a serial number on the barrel
that has been defaced or obscured with a curved gouge, making several short strokes.
I should take the barrel off and investigate.

I'd like to find a good reproduction cannalured (corncob) wooden fore end and stain it to match the stock.
Any Ideas as to where to find one that would fit a 1941 era M37.

I remember seeing repro hard plastic butt plates on line. Too many for me to know what one to get.
I don't think I'd put a hard butt plate on it. I like to shoot it too much. But I know what to look for now, if I did.
I'd put a thinner, contemporary, soft butt pad on it as the length of pull is a little long for me.

Thanks Again,
Take Care,
Stay Well.
jm

The barrel and receiver should have matching serial numbers.
If it is mismatched it is not considered safe to shoot, although by this time that is probably water under the bridge.

Hey scosgt,
I found a photo that shows the gouge marks near the serial number.

The sun came out a little today so I went outside to take some new photographs
of the current "Reigning Queen" of my martial arms.
I wanted to see the whole gun and the colorful grain in the stock.
Attachment 47364Attachment 47365Attachment 47366Attachment 47367Attachment 47368
Almost got it.

Thanks,
Stay Well,
jm

Tom , Can you check serial No. 48603 , it has the same markings on the receiver that John Mello described on his shotgun . Mine has matching Ser. No. on barrel and receiver , no choke markings , " P " proof on barrel and barrel is 20" in length . Thank you . Carl

I suspect the gouge marks are from where the barrel was held in a vice to install the choke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 7.62match

Tom , Can you check serial No. 48603 , it has the same markings on the receiver that John Mello described on his shotgun . Mine has matching Ser. No. on barrel and receiver , no choke markings , " P " proof on barrel and barrel is 20" in length . Thank you . Carl

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Carl, 48603 was shipped to Springfield Armory on Dec. 19, 1941. It was part of a 291 gun shipment, all of which were 12 gage 30 inch full choke barrel Model 37 shotguns.

Can you post any photos of the gun including the martial markings? And, what kind of proof tested mark is on the barrel? Is it the one with the word "Proof" in a semi-circle above the word "Tested", are the words "Proof Tested' part of the barrel address, or is there only a P proof mark? Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by scosgt

I suspect the gouge marks are from where the barrel was held in a vice to install the choke.

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Maybe so. But, did you notice that the font style of the serial number on the barrel does not match the style of the number on the receiver? Maybe it's a replacement barrel that has been renumbered to the receiver.

Quite possible, and that would not be factory based on what I have observed.

The subject gun has the semi-circle "Proof Tested" barrel mark. I know that mark was used post WWII up until around the early 1960s. I am checking sources to see if it was used prior to WWII. I don't believe any of the Military contract guns have that mark on the barrel. If that mark was not used pre WWII, that would confirm that it is a later replacement barrel.

The Subject Guns Barrel in Question.
Attachment 47371Attachment 47372

Marks on Receiver.
Attachment 47373Attachment 47374

jm

Attachment 47375Attachment 47376Attachment 47377

Here is my unmolested gun from the same batch
You are quite correct about the barrel, it is NOT original to the gun.

Hey scosgt,
That is a very nice looking long gun you have there.
Do all the Ithaca M37 30 inch barreled Training Shotguns you have seen from this 1941
commercial to military transition period, have the Checkered Fore End Grip like yours?

If the barrels with the word of curved type over a word of straight type,
reading " PROOF " (over) " TESTED " are not of the era, then it looks bad.
Why would a bubba bother to number the barrel for a home replacement job?
Unless evil motives were the reason. As in FAKE!

I'm not too disappointed about the replacement barrel.
Kind of Nice that it's Not the Butchered Original.
It's a a good Ithaca barrel. And still worth the $50 bucks i paid.
And dose not alter the fact that This Ithaca M37 serial No. 50842 shipped from The Ithaca Gun Co. N.Y.
to The Springfield Armory, Mass., on Dec. 12, 1941, the same week as The Attack on Pearl Harbor.

Thanks for Everyones Help and Input. An Invaluable Source of Information.

Take Care,
Stay Well,
jm

The wood is the same on all the 30" guns of the era, even post War.
The barrel was probably installed by a gunsmith. It is not that unusual for barrels to be swapped in the military, but in these early guns they are hand fitted, and dangerous to swap due to headspace. Someplace on the forum I posted an Ithaca Gun Company warning about that.
So my best guess is that a gunsmith fitted the barrel and choke, and marked the barrel to indicate it was safe.
That round proof mark does not appear on the military guns, so your barrel may be post War.

Checking with some sources, Walt Snyder's book on Ithaca shotgun says the semi-circle Proof Tested mark was added either just before or after WWII. Some collectors with both pre-War and post War Model 37s said their pre-War guns do not have the semi-circle proof mark whereas the early post-War guns do.

Tom, I have no way of posting pictures but my shotgun looks exactly like scosgt gun , but with a 20" barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 7.62match

Tom, I have no way of posting pictures but my shotgun looks exactly like scosgt gun , but with a 20" barrel.

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Most likely cut down. There were records of two "riot" guns that apparently were shipped without adapters, but if memory serves there were actually 22"?
AFAIK in 40 years of collecting there are no 20" guns with the United States Property marks that would be original.
No one really wanted these guns after WWII and many were converted to sporting configurations.

Here are more marks I found in the barrel that may or may not make any difference.
I took the barrel off to photograph.
What I described as gouges are punch marks, straight down.
Under more magnification than seen here, I can see the walls of each character cave in on itself.
It's a 5 digit number, 47648.
Attachment 47382
It's not the same font, as the 4's don't have the serifs that the 4 below it dose.

Also between the threads is a Ithaca mark I've seen in C.W. Clawson's book on 1911's.
on pg 55, Fig. 41. Looks like the first one in the row.
Attachment 47383

I thought you'd want all the dope.

Thanks,
jm