WWI Sniper Scope Cases

[cplnorton]

Well Jim we will just agree to disagree.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Steve,
I am not certain what it is we disagree over. We know the 8-loop A5 scope cases exist and were issued to known snipers in early 1918. This can be documented with pictures and documents. So no disagreement there. We know there was a contract that stipulates an order for 6-loop scope cases. No argument there. What we don't know is if those 6-loop scope cases were actually made and delivered since neither of us has seen one that can be traced to any sniper or even the Corps itself. Agreed? I concede I do not know whether the 6- loop scope cases exist, and if I understand your post, you do think so. Therefore I don't necessarily disagree with you, I am just seeking some physical proof they exist and were used by the Corps sniper detachments.

That is the purpose of the original post. I am seeking a photo of a 6-loop scope case with the tell-tale data in the cap documenting it as a Corps A5 scope case. Let's see what comes our way.

Regards,

jt

[cplnorton]

Actually I have never seen any Marine/WRA documention of any 8 loop cases in the Marines or at WRA.

On the WRA side I probably pulled over 5000 documents from Cody, that detail all the WWI Contracts. I have zero mentions of a 8 loop case. But I have several mentions of a 6 loop going to the Marines. Jim I can prove that 6 loop cases were sent to the Marines as well as the Army.

We pulled all the labeled Marine Documents at the archives from this era and went through them all. We did find several documents from the Marine side for the Winchester orders. The rifles are described in greater detail than the cases. The cases just say leather cases. So that is not any proof of either.

I have all the Neidner shop records for the Marine Corps for 1916 and 1917, there are no mentions of Neidner selling any cases to the Marines.

I have never seen any actual 1917/18 pictures of a 8 loop case in actual use.

The only proof I've seen of a Marine 8 loop case is a very few with a Marine name typewritten inside the lid. Many of which came through a dealer hands. Which it only takes a blank card and an old typerwriter from the day and a name from a roster. Sorry to say, but it would take me about five minutes to fake one. And there is no way you could prove it was real or not.

What I'm arguing Jim is the WRA documents do not mention a 8 loop case going to the Marines, they only mention a 6 loop case. And our only proof of a 8 loop case in the Marines is a few with typewritten names on the inside. I am not aware of any other proof.

Jim as I said, there might be a perfectly logical reason they exist, and maybe I haven't found it. Maybe there was some contract for them, that wasn't archived, or maybe they went through another supplier to get them. Maybe the Marines scrounged/ordered them from someone other than Winchester. Or they bought them after WWI.

But Winchester does not mention they made a 8 loop for the Marines during the war. So how do you prove they are real?

[cplnorton]

Jim I use this as case in point.

The Marine Unertl sniper rifle in Brophy's book, I think anyone who knows these rifles would say it doesn't look real. But that rifle in that book has #10 sights. As soon as that one seemed to show up in a book, you start to see Unertl rifles show up with #10 sights.

But the problem with this is, when you look at the actual documents, the order to remove all #10 sights from the Marine Corps happened 7 years before the Unertl rifles were even converted. They were done with those sights and condemned them. What what makes it even more problematic is in the documents it actually describes the sights used on the Unertl snipers and they are not #10 sights.

So to me I think what happened is they saw the rifle in Brophy's book, or some expert told them #10 sights were correct on them, so people started to add them to their rifles.

The same can be said with the star guage stamp at the muzzle on Unertl rifles. Even though I have documents proving that the Marines replaced the barrels with standard barrels. You see real snipers with a Marine replaced barrel and a faked star guage stamp at the muzzle. Someone just added it because someone or a book told them that was correct. So they faked it to make it seem correct.

That is why I do not trust traits anymore. There are too many possibilities of people adding or removing stuff. Usually if you search long enough you will find the actual document that describes the item at the time it was made.

And as I've said several times, maybe I will find a document someday to prove they did exist. I'm still actively looking for A5 documents. I have a researcher buddy going to the Archives on Thursday as we found a location for A5 documents from 1918/19. And God only knows what they will say in there.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

"....and an old typerwriter from the day and a name from a roster". Show me a roster of WWI USMC snipers. I have looked for 5-years and can't find one. Yet every name found in an 8-loop scope case withe the data in the lid can be traced back to his time as a sniper. Either all were faked by one very knowledgeable faker, or they are all authentic.

I can provide you with the name of a very nice preacher who sold his father's A5 scope case, and his father was trained as a sniper at the OSD Scout-Sniper School and kept a detailed diary of his time in the Corps. I know the man who now owns that scope case. I have seen and held that scope case. All involved will attest to the fact that the scope case has the detailed data pasted inside the lid of the scope case. The scope case is identical (except for name, serial number, and values) to all the other known A5 scope cases. It is an 8-loop russet brown scope case. That scope case is not faked - period. Since the others are essentially identical to it, there is no way they are fakes.

The first sniper rifles issued were issued with A5 scopes in an 8-loop russet scope case.

jt

[cplnorton]

Jim, as I said earlier we will agree to disagree on this.

The snipers names are very easy to find. Just look down the Marine rosters from WWI and pick out the ones going to sniper school. Here is your Gunner Estock and a couple more from the same page he was on.

[TDP0311]

Gunner Estock and Sgt LeValley came from regular duties in Cuba to HQ Company, Overseas Depot in Quantico in June of 1918. Gunner Estock was an instructor at this course, and both men would transfer to 3/11 and deploy with the 5th Marine Brigade in the late fall of 1918, with Gunner Estock taking a commission as a 2nd Lt. Due to the late timing of their departure, they would not see combat. It also is very likely the rifles they deployed with would be from the WRA contract, as the earlier Neidner built rifles would have left with the 5th & 6th in 1917.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Steve, Are you saying you believe the existing 8-loop scope cases with sniper's names in them are all fakes?

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Gunner Estock and Sgt LeValley came from regular duties in Cuba to HQ Company, Overseas Depot in Quantico in June of 1918. Gunner Estock was an instructor at this course, and both men would transfer to 3/11 and deploy with the 5th Marine Brigade in the late fall of 1918, with Gunner Estock taking a commission as a 2nd Lt. Due to the late timing of their departure, they would not see combat. It also is very likely the rifles they deployed with would be from the WRA contract, as the earlier Neidner built rifles would have left with the 5th & 6th in 1917.

The Neidner rifles left with the 6th Regiment, as the 5th was already in France before Neidner started his work.

Jim.

[TDP0311]

Archival documents we have found show Niedner began his main mounting run in May (some were done considerably earlier), and finished in early June. He was paid before the 5th Marines, who sailed during the 3rd week of June departed. There was ample time for the portion allotted to the 5th Marines to leave with them for France.