US&S EXP No 8

[ignats]

I've seen a number of online auctions (GG, AA) where the seller amended his description after he was set straight regarding an inaccuracy in his description. In my experience, most gun store owners haven't got much knowledge regarding collectible firearms. In fact some that I've known shy away from them because it's just too easy to get burned and you are dealing with a select market. It's probably impossible for every auction to have and expert on hand who knows everything regarding the many collectible firearms available.

[Tommy2guns]

Also if anyone noted the listing at RIAC regarding one of the early Colt prototypes that they had listed as original finish not too long ago and have a gunsmith contact them and state he blued the gun. And he blued it for Scott Meadows. So what part of that makes you scratch your head the most?

[John R.]

I truly hate to see these oneupmanship pissing matches amongst our membership . It would be much more pleasant to just agree to disagree and be done with it.Never mind getting into a "Battle Royale".

I have known Johnny Peppers by e-mail and at least one phone call for an Arkansas Piney Woods coon's age. I have been here since the days of Gun and Knife and poor Mark Bitting.Johnny and I have a mutual family friend from Strong,Arkansas.That being the case if I have a big ?, I get in touch with him knowing I'll get a sraight,no nonsense answer.I keep meaning to call him regarding my mint
six inch Navy Volcanic but have been busier than the towel boy in a mining camp whorehouse after the gold buyers just left,lately.If anyone of you are clued in re real volcanics,please drop me a PM.

Gordon,who is the retired CEO of a major commercial airline,has the wherewithall to buy any firearm he pleases.Charlie Clawson ( and Gordon ) are also multi thousand hour commercial pilots.Charlie Clawson,whom I have also spoken with , retired from commercial flying and took up researching and writing books.He came across as being an honourable man,as is Johnny Peppers.Neither have an axe to grind as you can't export any Military Colts from Canada to the US.Anything they told me was for info only AND gratis.Scott Gahimer has also dispensed knowledge to many tyro M1911/ M1911A1 collectors here gratuitously.

As it happens I too had a real North American Arms M1911 Government Model back when I was around 20 and living in Toronto.It looked like Caron Brothers built and finished many more slide assemblies than they did frames.My slide was very nicely done as were the small parts and grips.The frame however was rather rough and in the white,totally devoid of serial number or any other markings.The Toronto Police Dept registered it for me and stamped Their serial number ( all were in the 10 K bracket) under the LEFT grip.

I traded it for a brand new SA M14 with Canadian Arsenals ( Long Branch) who were doing a production run of NM M14 barrels at the time and had ten brand new SA M14's for testing or whatever.
I figured that I came out ahead on the deal,but the CO and Chief Design Engineer were friends who had done me many favours,so who really cared ?

Needless acrimony as seen in this thread should be beneath all of us.Such is my belief at least.Hopefully it won't happen again.Wasn't it Benj Franklin who said " If we don't hang together ,we shall surely hang seperately !" Let's all try to hang together,we have way too many lying lieberal hands against us as it is.

Cheers,

John R.

PS: A RCMP Sgt. at the Firearms Registry in Ottawa told me circa fifteen years ago AFTER I asked him,that by S/N there are EIGHT Singer M1911A1's in Canada.As you can well imagine he couldn't tell me who owned them or where they were.

My Father didn't like six inch barreled S&W's so he swapped a bottle of Scotch for a 900K M1911A1 with some USAAF Pilot and then another bottle to get a second one for his crewman in their Mosquito.Neither of them liked revolvers and in the RCAF you had a choice between a five inch Victory Model or a six inch blued Model 10 and the six incher was only if you were lucky or joined early. They did some time in Beaufighters but mostly in Mosquitos and came home in Mk X Lancasters built in Toronto ( well,Malton back then ! )

[anton67]

No need to personally attack those who disagree.
No need to tell everyone how rich you are.
If you post a gun on this forum you should be prepared to get comments good and bad.
No need to make it personal.
I have no horse in this race.
I truly hate to see these oneupmanship pissing matches amongst our membership .

I agree 100% with John R.

[John HOLBROOK]

Hey Gordon, Kori and I are looking forward to coming down to Houston to see you then on to my 64Th Sinton Texas High School Reunion, Class of 1950. There are only 11 of us left!!!!
I always like to examine rare and historic 1911s and other things, one of which I am bring with me!

Here are some US&S pistols and a few early Navy issued Colts...

[Shooter5]

Mr Holbrook; FYSA, I met Mr 'Swede' Boreen last year at a MOAA conference last year and he is a Pearl Harbor survivor from the USS Oklahoma.

http://www.stripes.com/news/veterans/n-c-veteran-recounts-horrors-of-pearl-harbor-experience-1.256606

http://article.wn.com/view/2013/12/07/NC_veteran_recounts_horrors_of_Pearl_Harbor_experience/

John R: a Mosquito recently flew again!

http://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/2012/09/28/mosquito-ka114-flies-in-auckland/#more-1617

[John HOLBROOK]

Not many folks know "The rest of the story" of the USS OKLAHOMA after she was up righted and raised from the mud of Pearl Harbor. It was determined not to refit her and nor return her to service, so she was sold for scrap and while she was being towed to CONUS, she broke tow, rolled over and sank a few hundred miles west of the Islands.

Perhaps a better and more fitting end for a proud and noble warship......

[cplnorton]

With you having #8, I'm just curious how this one compares to yours. I didn't read all the back and forth, but did notice the comments about the rear tang. Mine is the same way. But here are some pics. I'm just curious how mine stacks up to your number 8.

This has been in my friends collection from about 2001. He was richer than God and paid a small fortune for it back then and he owned over a 1000 1911's. But that doesn't make it real. He passed and I got it from the estate. I know I showed it on the 1911 forum several years ago and Scott said it was a fake. And since then when I shown it several times and it's always 50/50 real vs fake.

I know Julius Kosan really well, and he looked at it and tended to believe it was real. And I keep on trying to catch Chuck Clawson to look at it, but everytime I see him, I don't have it with me.

But the problem with these and you barely ever see two that are identical. It seems everyone you look at it, is different from the rest. So how do you know if it's real when there is so much variation in them all?

[Johnny P]

That looks like an aftermarket receiver.

[Scott Gahimer]

Agreed. Receiver is not US&S... not even USGI.

[Duane Hansen]

You can see the indentation where the old serial number and United States Property markings were ground off. The new numbers and lettering are even more crude than the other EXP pistols that I've seen and that were shown in the previous pictures.

[Scott Gahimer]

It's an Argentinean receiver.

Here are photos of another fake where they used an Argentinean receiver, and the moron who made it wasn't even bright enough to remove the internal serial number. BATF liked this one and last I heard, they were going after the guy.

[cplnorton]

I honestly do think it's a USGI frame. The only reason I say this is because I can see in the right light what looks like a very faint M1911A1 US ARMY on the right side of the frame. It's been removed as well. And in that area the receiver is divited as with metal removed. It's a ghost image sort of like how you sand off a cartouche in wood, and can still see it somewhat in the right light.

But there is no way I could ever get a pic of it. I have to have it in very bright sunlight and twist and turn it to make out where it was. I don't know if there were any commercial guns made that had markings similar to that in that spot or not. And maybe that would explain it. But it does appear to have had at one time the M1911A1 US ARMY markings that you see on WWII guns. Which just adds more to the mystery of it.

I have really always felt these Experimental were more a leap of faith than anything. It would be very easy to fake one if you wanted to.

As for this one. I have very found memories of my friend who was the previous owner. He is the one who got me started on 1911's and this one I have very fond memories with. That is the reason I have it mostly, just out of remembrance of out talks and the friendship we had. He was one heck of a guy and is dearly missed everyday. He was an old Korean War vet and a drinker and womanizer till the day he died. He was in his mid 70's, dating 20 year old girls and had a medicine cabinet full of viagra. He was a blast to be around and sort of a second father to me. He was a good guy.

[Scott Gahimer]

All you have to do is look at the recoil spring housing (how big it is) and all the extra metal that shows along the side of the stocks to know it is not a USGI receiver. There is a slight possibility it could be an aftermarket cast receiver. But, if forged, the only receivers that have the front straps and recoil spring housings not fully rounded are the Argentinean pistols. With all due respect, it's just wishful thinking to say or wish it is USGI. None of the USGI receivers have the traits of the Argie. Additionally, the grip tang is correctly shaped for the Argie, too.

[cplnorton]

Gotcha, I see what you are saying. I might have to borrow a friends Argentina and try to look at them side by side and get measurements. Both sides of the frame have been ground down a lot. Almost like they put it on a huge belt sander or something and removed the metal. The frame has had a lot of metal removed. I can tell as the mag release protrudes out on each side much further than it should. The receiver is not cast and does appear to be forged, so you very well might be right. I am not ever going to make claims of originality on this one, or really any Experimental to be honest. I just don't know enough. I do believe I see the Army markings but maybe I'm mistaken. It wouldn't be the first time.