British Marked Colt M1911A1 Questions

[usmc69]

In my possession I have a all correct Colt produced M1911A1 of WW II vintage. The S/N is 1653825. Not sure if it is a Lend Lease pistol or not. On the frame partially over the cartouche is a crossed sceptre, surrounding the X formed by the sceptre is a dot at the top and a D on the left a 2 on the bottom and a B on the right. Right of the grip is a circle with a crown on it with a BV in the circle, right of that is NOTENGLISHMADE. On the barrel in a row are three circles with crowns in them are BV, BP, & NP. On the slide to the rear of the ejection port is NOTENGLISHMADE and a circle with a crown with BV in the circle. I think the piece has been reparked as none of the stampings show any bare metal in the stamps. Best guesses.........?

[Johnny P]

Birmingham Proof House commercial proofs dating to 1953. The markings won't necessarily show any bare metal, but should show some burnishing. The original finish on the barrel was blue, and if refinished is probably phosphate.

[usmc69]

Birmingham Proof House commercial proofs dating to 1953. The markings won't necessarily show any bare metal, but should show some burnishing. The original finish on the barrel was blue, and if refinished is probably phosphate.

Barrel is blued. Would a Lend Lease pistol have later proofs on it?

[Johnny P]

The Lend-Lease Model 1911A1 pistols were not proofed when they arrived in England. Military weapons did not have to be proofed, but once they were released for commercial sale they had to be proofed. The British government started releasing them for sale in 1952.

[Mikecp]

Is there some Lend-lease M 1911A1 pistols send to England in collectors hands without proof marks?

[Johnny P]

Before the small arms sent to England under the Lend-Lease program could be sold commercially they had to be proofed. If somehow one was slipped out of England without being proofed, there would be no way of knowing that it was Lend-Lease, and it really wouldn't make any difference one way or the other. The main attraction of the Lend-Lease 1911A1 was that it came back in virtually new if not new condition.

[Mikecp]

hello Johnny,
Here in my country we often encountered M1911A1 wearing British proof, maybe I'd like to get one, as a part of the history of M1911A1, so to make it clear in my mind, 'cause it's a bit confusing for me!
When the pistol left the factory and was lend & lease example to Great Britain, the pistol was free of any foreign marks, is that right?
If so, the gun was proofed at the arriving in England with a British view marks (V, toped with a crown) on barrel, receiver, slide, during War time.
After in 1952, guns was release to commercial sales and wearing on it. "Not English Make" and "Released British Govt. 1952"
Afterward in 1955 (proof act of 1955) these inscriptions was eliminated as well as the view marks, keeping just BNP Birmingham Nitro proof on slide, receiver, and barrel (.45 .900" 7 Tons per S/Inches)
Thanks

[Johnny P]

Hope this posts as I haven't had any luck so far. I keep getting a message that my post needs to be at least 1 character long??????

hello Johnny,
"Here in my country we often encountered M1911A1 wearing British proof, maybe I'd like to get one, as a part of the history of M1911A1, so to make it clear in my mind, 'cause it's a bit confusing for me!
When the pistol left the factory and was lend & lease example to Great Britain, the pistol was free of any foreign marks, is that right?"

Yes. There were no other markings other than those applied by the manufacturer to all Model 1911A1 pistols. While some pistols were direct shipments to England, most were shipped to Springfield Armory, and then destined for England.

"If so, the gun was proofed at the arriving in England with a British view marks (V, toped with a crown) on barrel, receiver, slide, during War time."

The pistol was not proofed upon arriving in England. It was proofed when released for commercial sale beginning in 1952

"After in 1952, guns was release to commercial sales and wearing on it. "Not English Make" and "Released British Govt. 1952"
Afterward in 1955 (proof act of 1955) these inscriptions was eliminated as well as the view marks, keeping just BNP Birmingham Nitro proof on slide, receiver, and barrel (.45 .900" 7 Tons per S/Inches)"

That is correct, and the same proof law was also administered by the London Proof House.

"Thanks"

[dave]

Mikecp-------- When the Brit military recieved them they had only Colt proofs on them (US does not have a proof law, so its up to the manufacturer). The Brit military added no marks nor did they proof the pistols. Only when they were released for civilian sales were they proofed!

[Mikecp]

Thanks for your kind answer Dave.

[dave]

"the US has no proof laws, its up to the manufacturer." This was due to the principals this country was founded on. Self relience, no un-necessary goverment interfearence, and you are responsible for your actions! In other words no 'nanny' state. That is all changing now but it seems they have not thought of proof laws to control guns-----yet!

[Johnny P]

It did not matter if a firearm came from a country that did have a gun proof law unless they had a reciprocal proof law with England. If not, the firearm still had to be proofed before it could be sold there. Germany had a gun proof law but they had no agreement with England, and any German made firearm had to be proofed before being sold in England.

[gfguns]

Speaking of German proof law here is a U.S. manufactured Colt 1911A1 s/n 912419 Russian Lend Lease that made its way back to the States via a dealer in Germany in the 90's. Note the darker than normal finish. I was told the Russians put this black looking finish over our green parked finish but why I don't know. It almost looks like an oil or grease was applied and darkened the original parkerizing over time. None of the original detail or markings on the pistol were compromised by the coating and there is absolutely no sign of buffing. Whatever it is it did not take hold on the bright metal where the original parked finish was absent or broken by stamps applied after original finish e.g. Crossed Cannon escutcheon, inspectors mark and staking. The pistol appears to be unissued in like new condition.

[stan4]

For those that might be interested in British marked Commercial pistols, there are some differences (in markings) with the Government Models (and other arms) purchased by the British government through the British Purchasing Commission and the use of the Crown-W mark Inspector's stamp. (See p. 131 of CWC's Commercial book, 2nd Edition.)

[Johnny P]

Great photos of the German proofs and nice pistol. I always thought it was ironic that the modern German proof was virtually identical to the Nazi Army proof used up until the 1939 time period, with just the N added.