Singer grip comparison

[Tommy2guns]

Here are a few more photos of the singer grips in comparison to a set of the hollow back Colt 1911 grips with the re-enforcement ring as well ad a pair of Keyes grips without the ring as well.

Note the slightly tighter and smaller grid pattern of the singer compared to the Colt. The Keyes grips appear to follow the Singer characteristics a lot closer than the Colt example.

[gbethu]

Are both grips depicted in the third photo (showing the back of the grips ) Singer's ????

[Tommy2guns]

The one on the left is the hollow back set of Colt grips.

[Ed P]

When I count the rows between the rings on the Keyes and the Singer they are the same. 30 row between the rings.

[Tommy2guns]

Keyes

Per Clawson's big ole book a 1911 gun knowledge. Or as I like to call it, "45s for idiots" he states that Singer made every part for their 1911A1 pistol except the grips.

They were manufactured by Keyes in New York City without the strengthening ribs. So I guess that explains the close characteristic to the standard Keyes grips that were made for other makes of 1911s.

And please don't think for a second I am referring to you as an idiot. I had to look it up myself.

Thank you for the comment....

[Ed P]

Its a pretty tough find to find a Singer with all the correct parts, usually the mags have been switched out. Is that Singer yours? About 5 years ago I found a Singer barrel at the Reno Show, yes it was actually a Singer barrel. Also, a person turned me on to a single sided Singer grip panel that Simpsons had for sale. At that time it was $500 for a left Singer panel. I know several people out there with Singers looking for parts to complete there guns, if they come up. Probably most gave up.

[tanker trash]

Thanks for the pics. I have a set of unmarked, hollow back, no ring grips that I have always wondered about.

[Tommy2guns]

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[Tommy2guns]

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[Scott Gahimer]

Wow...$2K for an appraisal? That's unreal. Of course, IIRC, Ralph Shattuck used to do appraisals and charge 15% of the appraised value for his work. So most of the items he appraised were valued pretty high. $2K is 4X as high as my highest price for authenticating anything. My prices are shown on my web site and haven't changed since launching the site in 2010. But...maybe it's time for an increase!

I believe it was the old Auction Arms or GunBroker thar used to have a link to a guy in CO who was a licensed appraiser. Before I launched my web site, I decided to give him a call and ask him about appraising a military .45 for me...to check out my "competition" and hear what his process was. I spoke with him about 5 minutes and realized he didn't really know anything about the pistols, serial ranges, finishes, variations, etc... He just told me to e-mail him "a photo" of the gun, pay him $XX (I don't remember how much) and he'd e-mail me the appraised value.

I asked him how he was able to authenticate the finish and parts as being original if he didn't inspect the pistol in-hand? He told me he didn't authenticate anything as an appraiser, he just told me what it was worth. I may not be the brightest boy on the block, but I know if you can't verify the originality of parts and finish, you sure can't know what you are trying to value. Needless to say, I didn't think much of how he "appraised" things.

But of course, I don't hold myself out to be an appraiser. When I write an inspection report for a pistol, I concentrate on authenticating what is correct and original. In fact, I generally encourage folks to not insist on having me put a value on something I inspect. When a value is placed on an item, it sometimes limits what a fellow might get, should he decide to sell. If he holds the pistol five years, someone might read the report and believe the pistol has not appreciated at all.

I'm convinced that an accurate report is all that is required to ensure one gets fair market value when selling. Most buyers/bidders have trouble determining what's right and what's wrong. They're lost because they don't know what they are looking at. Remove the doubt and people will bid/buy with confidence. The only thing that's really important is what the pistol is. The market will take care of the rest.

Some collectors regularly use others to authenticate for them. There's nothing wrong with that scenario, provided the person authenticating knows what he is talking about. We've seen numerous examples, however, where that apparently wasn't the case. Sadly, in some cases, I think people are too proud to pay for good information. Bad information is worse than none at all. And big names don't always equate to knowledge. Many here can cite multiple examples of refinished and misrepresented pistols being sold by folks considered to be experts, honest, etc...

So what's the best option? Spend the time it takes to learn what it takes to make your own decisions. Of course, anyone who knows anything will tell you it literally takes decades to do that. And too many people simply refuse to do the work and spend the time to learn. They want to jump right in and build collections. Looking at someone's collection is the easiest way for me to learn what someone knows. Even a blind hog turns up an acorn now and then. Such is the case with many collections I've examined. In many cases, there are more bad ones than good ones. Rarely is the collector knowledgeable enough to have all pieces to be what he thinks they are. That's a shame.

I'm not really sure I understand the comment about an appraiser having pistols for sale...or how that would somehow be a bad thing or influence his ability to be able to inspect a different pistol and offer an opinion. In my own case, for example, I own several hundred pistols of my own. On my site, I show about 750+/- examples, and some of those are not mine. Some were sent to me for inspection and documentation. I think I currently have only about 6 items for sale in my Classifieds. Only one or two of those belong to me. Some collectors send guns to me to inspect and list for sale on my site. I do the inspections and photography. Our local gun shop handles all the transfers in and out.

I've bought a few guns from Scott Meadows over the years. I've literally purchased 60+ pistols from Chuck Clawson, but never felt them having a gun or guns for sale had anything to do with what they knew. In some cases, guns were even offered to me when I shared what I was looking to buy from someone else. That's just part of collecting and networking.

[Tommy2guns]

Well obviously you think I am referring to you and or your website or you wouldn't have written this long winded defense of your activities.

People can do whatever they choose with their money and their collections. I'm not here to tell anyone any different but I know for a first hand knowledge of fact that the scenario regarding the Singer and the $2000 for an inspection is completely accurate and quite recent. Not a doubt it happened and that is ludicrous.

Some of the stories people have told me regarding situations like that have been unreal. You would absolutely crawl into a hole and cringe at the statements people have made to me regarding their opinion and viewpoint of these activities. I'm not going to throw any mud you way Scott, you pull it to yourself like the eye of a hurricane.

So I wish you well my friend and I hope you are prosperous.

[Johnny P]

We are seeing more and more bogus guns show up on the internet forums. Some just have a fresh refinish taken back down to an acceptable level, but others even have bogus serial numbers. It's a shame that our hobby has attracted the snake oil salesmen that will do anything to sell another gun. The late Bill Adair told of a Model 1911 that was brought to him without a serial number, but the owner had conjured up the serial number and had Bill apply it to the receiver.

Build it and someone will buy it.

[Tommy2guns]

I agree

Hey JP,

No doubt there are a lot of examples out in the market that are bogus and misrepresented. I think that educating yourself or each other is the best defense against being taken.

I didn't know Bill Adair and since he has passed on I would not make any judgements on his work or alleged misdeeds. I see a lot of guns online that are contributed to him, to Tommy Haas as well as David B. In California. Whether or not they are from any of these guys they get that reputation hooked to them and they become near worthless to most.

I have been in touch with a couple of collectors from Ohio that I have known for years. They have both been members in the association in Ohio for years and know Chuck Clawson from over the years.

They are reporting that Chuck has pretty much disbanded his collection in whole as most here know already. When he did this what happened to his stationary and his embossing seal for his authentication letters?

It was stated to me that a couple of 1911s as well as some Norwegian 1911s, some Polish Radoms and some Springfield and M1s are popping up in the area with letters written by Clawson with what appears to be a blind stab at his signature and his embossed seal.

I think that type of thing causes more worry in the market then it can stand. Having a Clawson letter may not be as valuable to a collector as it once was if this pans out to be true. It would be like someone having a ream of the original Colt Archives stationary and their seal.

I see damn near perfect reproductions of all of the early ColtPistol boxes that with a little wear and tear they look completely authentic.

How long will it be before someone has to step forward and provide a authentication service for authentication letters?

What next?

[Johnny P]

Best to worry about the bogus pistols out there rather than a letter as the pistols will speak for themselves. Just having a pistol or rifle from someone's collection doesn't mean that much to me, but having one pictured in a book would.

Fake boxes are cheap and easy to detect if you know anything about the original boxes, but bogus pistols are not always that easy to detect, and are not cheap.

Mr. Clawson did a remarkable job of compiling information from his own research as well as the help of many other collectors in his ground breaking book published in 1991. Since that time new information has come to light, and as with anyone else writing such an all encompassing book, he didn't get everything right.

[Tommy2guns]

Oh I know and completely agree with you 100%. Unless a gun was in Patton's hand shooting at Japanese Zeros from his back deck and can be proven, any old gun from celebrity x doesn't impress me much either.

I think the issue with the letters are more concerning if presented with a well executed scam. On their own I don't put much stock in them. A factory Colt letter means little unless the gun or it's history are remarkable in some way like a Sheriff Model Single Action or a gun shipped to the Texas Rangers, etc...I never order the letters from Colt unless I believe that a gun is remarkable in some way.

As for bogus firearms, I'm no expert but I think common sense can carry you a long way in looking at an item closer and for what it is. I'm sure I have bought a bad piece some where along the way but didn't know it. I have read statements about completely undetectable forgeries out there and I wonder, if they are undetectable how do you know they are forgeries?

I have met Chuck several times and find him to be a hell of a man. Chuck would rather not tell you something as to tell you a lie or something just to make you feel better about your gun. I think he is as straight as they come. Between his book and several others I have learned a lot and gotten a good grasp on the nuances of the many different 1911s out there. One thing I remember asking him and heard several others had done the same was about errors I n the book. I got the same answer about nothing being 100% and he knew it.

I get the Smith and Wesson collectors guide every time they are released. The funniest thing I found about them a couple of years back was getting this big, brand new book and then immediately after receiving the corrections and omissions that were detected shortly after publication. So I can certainly forgive any author for not being 100% perfect.


I wish he would re-release the book in new form such as in disc and reprint the paperback version again but he said that is never gonna happen. He said he was done with publishing the book.