Why does anyone need an AR-15 ?

[blackhawknj]

MacArthur disapproved the adoption of the .276 round on logistical grounds, citing the huge amounts of 30/06 ammo on hand, the fact that the BAR and various machine guns were in 30/06. And War Department budgets in 1932 were VERY tight.
The British faced the Boers with their 7MM Mausers in the Second South African War, no doubt that inspired their .276 Enfield.
Given the resupply problems the Japanese usually had I doubt they could have kept their troops supplied if they had AK-47s.

[Former Cav]

If you wanted to go by sheer numbers of production wouldn't the AK-47 be the winner then?
I have my M1A's (can't afford a REAL M14, if I could, I would, likewise for the select fire FN/FAL).
have my AR's in "service rifle" (NRA classification) and "match rifle", and just alll around plinker.
also the SAR 48
and of course the AKS-56 (not sure on the number and the box is too high up to read) but it is the polytech version of the semi only AK-47
Which do I like best?
well, for NRA over the course, my AR-15,
I had the M16 in Vietnam and I had ONE stoppage which actually saved my life as I hit the dirt right before a burst of AK would have hit me in the chest.
We were advancing into Cholon during TET II of 68.
For sheer stopping power at 200 yards plus on an enemy soldier, I'd take the M-14. The Garrand would be a second choice only because it holds 8 rounds vs 20. A BM-59 (kind of like the Garrand with a 20 round box magazine) would be the best IMHO, as you got the 06 round, 20 of them, and then the weight to deal with the recoil so you can get back on target quicker.
The FAL is a good rifle, but the sights are not near as good the the M1 and M14 or M16.

[Vern Humphrey]

While the M-14 is a fine rifle (I carried one n 'Nam), I like the M-1 garand and my M1903A3. I own an AR-14 M4 which is also a fine rifle.

As an Adviser in '66 and '67, my issue weapon was an M2 carbine. It got wrapped around a tree, and I bummed an M1 off the ARVN. My second tour as a company commander, I bullied my battalion commander into getting me 2 M14 sniper rifles (pre-M21) I had one man who had been through the 3rd Marine Division sniper school. He got one and I took the other one,

I take the position that with trained men, an M1 or M14 and enough ammo to accomplish the mission is LIGHTER than an M16 and enough ammo to accomplish the same mission.

And I wouldn't look down my nose at an M1903A3, either.

[Former Cav]

I take the position that with trained men, an M1 or M14 and enough ammo to accomplish the mission is LIGHTER than an M16 and enough ammo to accomplish the same mission.

And I wouldn't look down my nose at an M1903A3, either.

I agree, ONE round from these will STOP them...whereas with the .223, it will take a while for them to die unless you did a head or heart shot.

- - - Updated - - -

OH yes, and another GOOD answer to the question on this string

Why does anyone need an AR-15 ?

to piss off a liberal !!

[Vern Humphrey]

Bruce, just to add a little more history: The British actually introduced a .276 round well before WW1...on the heels of the Boer Wars. In 1911 the .276 Enfield was already developed and its host rifle (the Pattern 13) was entered into record a few years after that. WW1 simply stalled it due to logistical reasons and the post war financial slumps killed it.
What happened as a result of that was the morphing of the P13 into the P14 which eventually gave us the M1917....a real mans rifle!

Yes, but the .280/,276 British round was based on the .280 Ross and was about the same as the 7mm Remington Magnum. Since the British were virtually married to cordite, it is a mystery how such a round would have faired in combat.

[Allen]

I take the position that with trained men, an M1 or M14 and enough ammo to accomplish the mission is LIGHTER than an M16 and enough ammo to accomplish the same mission.

And I wouldn't look down my nose at an M1903A3, either.

.308 holes make invisible souls.

[blackhawknj]

Military doctrine for decades has been to wound, incapacitate, take them out of the fight-and take the fight out of them. The 223 is a good anti-personnel round, though there is some evidence that our current enemies use drugs to numb their systems. But the 223 is too light to be an all purpose round.

[ddiwd]

A

Let me qualify my answer first. I have an AR-15 and have never fired an M14 (Springfield M1A) and my knowledge of the M14 is from reading. With the AR-15 being a 5.56 or 223 Remington as opposed to the M14 being a 7.62 or 308 Winchester, the AR-15 would be cheaper to shoot. You can also get a great deal of accessories for the AR quite readily. I would imagine that the M14 would have much better terminal ballistics at the same ranges. Personally I believe the 7.62 is a better stopper that the 5.56. If you like the style of the AR-15 and the 7.62 stopping power check to see if you can find an AR-10. This is what Eugene Stoner originally brought to the military trials when they were looking for a replacement for the M14. The military then told him to design it for a smaller caliber and the result was the AR-15. If I had to choose between an AR-15 or the Springfield M1A I would choose the M1A. It is better at longer ranges and in many states it is of a legal caliber to hunt deer with. That is if hunting deer with a military rifle is your cup of tea.

[SUPERX-M1]

The best rifle is artillery.

FN-FAL was contending with M14. Springfield Armory was contentious , arrogant, and protecting their fiefdom, and m14 won. SA lost control of small arms development thereafter. SA and others were hostile to Stoner, AR 10, and m16.

USA forced 7.62 on nato and then forced 5.56 also.

There are books on the introduction and development of m16, Stoner, .

[Major Tom]

[QUOTE=Vern Humphrey;515243]As an Adviser in '66 and '67, my issue weapon was an M2 carbine. It got wrapped around a tree, and I bummed an M1 off the ARVN. My second tour as a company commander, I bullied my battalion commander into getting me 2 M14 sniper rifles (pre-M21) I had one man who had been through the 3rd Marine Division sniper school. He got one and I took the other one,

Vern, you reminded me that when I was in 'Nam (66-67) we were issued the M14. Occasionally other troops would come by. I saw my first M16 carbine and also the M16 with grenade launcher carried by 25th infantry.

[blackhawknj]

Artillery works great when you have clearly delineated front lines and beyond a certain point you know it's enemy territory.
And your artillery men know their stuff. There were a lot of complaints in Vietnam that the Army's artillery performed poorly compared to WWII and Korea, the "2nd looie" was the usual scapegoat, many of the OCS/Officers Basic Course graduates I have talked to from that time have said their training was no good, either too hurried or rushed or simply omitted a lot, the NCOs they had to rely on weren't that good, their superior officers more concerned with punching their tickets and passing the buck than in correcting problems so people could perform properly.

[Vern Humphrey]

Artillery works great when you have clearly delineated front lines and beyond a certain point you know it's enemy territory.
And your artillery men know their stuff. There were a lot of complaints in Vietnam that the Army's artillery performed poorly compared to WWII and Korea, the "2nd looie" was the usual scapegoat, many of the OCS/Officers Basic Course graduates I have talked to from that time have said their training was no good, either too hurried or rushed or simply omitted a lot, the NCOs they had to rely on weren't that good, their superior officers more concerned with punching their tickets and passing the buck than in correcting problems so people could perform properly.

I graduated from Artillery OCS in '63 and wangled my way back into the Infantry. When I went through the training was very thorough.

As a company commander, I had a really good FO and between us, we could use artillery as it should be used. For example, one time we had a long night march along the coast. We set up illumination concentrations on the horizon (there were always illumination rounds going off at night) and as we marched, we would occasionally call for three concentrations and shoot azimuths to those lights on the horizon to confirm that we were on track. It worked beautifully!

[jjrothWA]

5.56mm is a good varmit round, whne the varmints are shooting back, I'll take a Cal.30!

[Vern Humphrey]

5.56mm is a good varmit round, whne the varmints are shooting back, I'll take a Cal.30!

Amen! I bummed an M1 from the ARVN unit I advised my first tour, and got my battalion commander to get me an M14 sniper rifle (pre-M21) on my second tour.

[jmm03]

Vern, pardon my ignorance (and not to derail the thread) but could you explain the azimuth location method briefly please? Thanks, Jim