Any long range shooters on here

[p246]

Curious what glass every one is using. In our group the Bushnell HDMR is pretty popular. I have one myself. I also run an IOR TX Raider (in Europe it is the Lutanz). It’s been a great optic but I have not been in it for long. We have a NightForce ATACR F1 in our group. It has never failed to perform. One guy is running a Burris on a BA 50. Glass is not as nice as some but it dials spot on which is the most important IMO. Finally we have a Athlon Cronus and I thought it the equal to the Bushnell HDMR. I don’t like the windage markings but that’s a fine detail. Out of the lot the best glass is the IOR. My grip about the IOR is the new turrent clicks aren’t as positive as the old style. I like the elevation turrent on the ATACR, but don’t like the capped windage turrent (yeah I hold my wind but like to dial spin drift). Anyway modern B and A grad optics have come so far in the last couple decades. I got to look through and play with a Tanget Theta TT25 made in Canada, what a wickedly awesome scope, price also wickedly awesome. The glass was so good you didn’t have to touch the parallax very often. Then there is US Optics, you can use it as a hammer during the week then shoot it on the weekend. So What is everyone else having good or bad luck with.

[snakehunter]

Curious what glass every one is using. In our group the Bushnell HDMR is pretty popular. I have one myself. I also run an IOR TX Raider (in Europe it is the Lutanz). It’s been a great optic but I have not been in it for long. We have a NightForce ATACR F1 in our group. It has never failed to perform. One guy is running a Burris on a BA 50. Glass is not as nice as some but it dials spot on which is the most important IMO. Finally we have a Athlon Cronus and I thought it the equal to the Bushnell HDMR. I don’t like the windage markings but that’s a fine detail. Out of the lot the best glass is the IOR. My grip about the IOR is the new turrent clicks aren’t as positive as the old style. I like the elevation turrent on the ATACR, but don’t like the capped windage turrent (yeah I hold my wind but like to dial spin drift). Anyway modern B and A grad optics have come so far in the last couple decades. I got to look through and play with a Tanget Theta TT25 made in Canada, what a wickedly awesome scope, price also wickedly awesome. The glass was so good you didn’t have to touch the parallax very often. Then there is US Optics, you can use it as a hammer during the week then shoot it on the weekend. So What is everyone else having good or bad luck with.

Bausch & Lomb 4000 4x-16x

[Dan in NH]

Vortex Viper HST 6-24

[jmm03]

IOR 36X benchrest, old Redfield 6400 boosted to 24X, Unertl 16X, I like fixed power.

[Jay Johnson]

I’ve always had great success with US Optics, I’ve had several of them, currently I have a SN3 TPal 3.2-17x44 with their GAP mil-reticle mounted on a Rem. 700 PSS M40 clone in .308 Win.. I’m using a Badger 20MOA rail and Badger rings, it’s a rugged rig and very capable out to 1000 yards using 175gr. Sierra Match King pills.

[p246]

IOR 36X benchrest, old Redfield 6400 boosted to 24X, Unertl 16X, I like fixed power.

Curious how old your IOR is. In my younger days I shot a fixed 10 luppy. Nothing wrong with fixed power.

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I’ve always had great success with US Optics, I’ve had several of them, currently I have a SN3 TPal 3.2-17x44 with their GAP mil-reticle mounted on a Rem. 700 PSS M40 clone in .308 Win.. I’m using a Badger 20MOA rail and Badger rings, it’s a rugged rig and very capable out to 1000 yards using 175gr. Sierra Match King pills.

The SN3 TPal was an awesome scope. I’d like to see them bring it back. I get why they narrowed their line down to the B series. Maybe if they are successful in the move they can open some of the line back up. However for reticle choices and option they are the ticket. They are also tough scopes if a little heavy.

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Bausch & Lomb 4000 4x-16x

Great scope and it’s been around a day or two. The 4000 series if I remember was their top of the line.

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Vortex Viper HST 6-24

The shooter in our group with the Nightforce has been looking at the Vortex Razor HD II. He had a viper on a bull barrel AR. It was a MOA scope and the rest of us shot MRAD so we converted him and he sold it. My only vortex is a red dot, but their scope line has come on strong.

[jmm03]

I don't really know how old my IOR is, I bought it used, i've had it 5 or 6 years. Is there a way to tell from the serial number? It sits on a Remington 700 with a Bartlein 5R in 6.5 x 55. It replaced a USO ST-10, needed more power, old eyes unfortunately...

[p246]

I don't really know how old my IOR is, I bought it used, i've had it 5 or 6 years. Is there a way to tell from the serial number? It sits on a Remington 700 with a Bartlein 5R in 6.5 x 55. It replaced a USO ST-10, needed more power, old eyes unfortunately...

I can’t answer the age question. Asked because if it was brand new wanted to know if you liked the new turrent. I like the locking option and the stupid easy zero stop but wish the clicks were a bit more positive. I’ve been happy with my IOR stuff but they get hit a lot for stuff on the inter web.

Magnification yes I find myself using a little more also. The better glass these days does help though.

[Jay Johnson]

Kahles K624i 6-24x56mm Mil/Mil with left side windage knob and their SKMR3 tree-type reticle, using Spuhr split rings on a LRB M25 in 7mm-08 Rem. built by Roland Beaver at Old Corps Weaponry in Bald Knob, Arkansas. Excellent Alpha scope for this application with the windage knob on the left side opens up the ejection area, great optics, somewhat compact, solid turret repeatability and the SKMR3 reticle allows fast follow-up shots. I leave both eyes open and my dominant right eye takes over to see through the glass but I can toggle to my left eye and see my windage adjustment with this scope and without losing my cheek weld. The red pop-up indicator on top of the elevation turret never leaves you guessing if you’re on the second turn or not. IMO, Kahles K-series might be the best value out of the European Alpha scopes on the market today.




I tried the Steiner Military M5Xi 5-25x56 with MSR reticle, bought it second hand after first getting my Surgeon 591SA in 6.5x47 Lapua built by Stewart Rifles in southeast Oklahoma, not a bad scope but it’s large, even for an Alpha scope it’s big and the MSR reticle is really busy.




I upgraded to a Schmidt & Bender PMII 5-25x56 L/P MTC LT with their P4Fine reticle and never looked back, best optic I’ve ever owned. My only complaint is the MTC turrets make fine adjustments hard bacause it always clicks past your target setting when moving fast and you have to back track a click or two.

[p246]

Kahles K624i 6-24x56mm Mil/Mil with left side windage knob and their SKMR3 tree-type reticle, using Spuhr split rings on a LRB M25 in 7mm-08 Rem. built by Roland Beaver at Old Corps Weaponry in Bald Knob, Arkansas. Excellent Alpha scope for this application with the windage knob on the left side opens up the ejection area, great optics, somewhat compact, solid turret repeatability and the SKMR3 reticle allows fast follow-up shots. I leave both eyes open and my dominant right eye takes over to see through the glass but I can toggle to my left eye and see my windage adjustment with this scope and without losing my cheek weld. The red pop-up indicator on top of the elevation turret never leaves you guessing if you’re on the second turn or not. IMO, Kahles K-series might be the best value out of the European Alpha scopes on the market today.




I tried the Steiner Military M5Xi 5-25x56 with MSR reticle, bought it second hand after first getting my Surgeon 591SA in 6.5x47 Lapua built by Stewart Rifles in southeast Oklahoma, not a bad scope but it’s large, even for an Alpha scope it’s big and the MSR reticle is really busy.




I upgraded to a Schmidt & Bender PMII 5-25x56 L/P MTC LT with their P4Fine reticle and never looked back, best optic I’ve ever owned. My only complaint is the MTC turrets make fine adjustments hard bacause it always clicks past your target setting when moving fast and you have to back track a click or two.

Very nice rifles and glass. I have a gun being rebuilt at the smith now. I’m going to buy a new piece of glass for it. I’m down to US Optic B25, Kahles 525i, and S and B PMII. I haven’t totally ruled out another IOR TX Raider because mine has been great. My issue is I keep my glass so a major break down means going back to Romania. The MP 8 reticle is good but not my first choice. I like the H59/SKMR3 Type reticle. I have plenty of time as I just ordered the reamer and that will take a month or two. I run blue printed 700 actions and haven’t sprung for a full custom action so far. I’ve had great luck and service from Manners Stocks and Barlein Barrels. You just have to order them well in advance.

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B7613E0E-796D-43F9-9605-D4E1DB4D6436.jpg

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Threw on a couple pictures of the IOR TX raider on my 700 260 build.

[PWC]

https://i.imgur.com/xtzfXgE.png?1[/img]

Why 2015?

[Cosine26]

Long Range Shooting
I do not know what you are referring to as “Long Range” shooting. Some shooters of today believe that 300 yards is “long range” , In my early days the NMC included a 1000 yard stage.
After WWII the 1000 yard stage was dropped, probably the service grade M1 and 30 M2 Ball were not very good at 1000. Besides, the Army de-emphasized the practice of rifle marksmanship. Also after WWII many of the old 1000 yard ranges were gone due to urbanization.
I was fortunate to move to west Texas where I joined a rifle club that had a range that included 30 firing points to 1000 yards so I fired it quite frequently. We often fire the old Long range A or B course- the only difference being that one required 10 shots at 1000 and the other required 20 shots. Sometimes we would shoot a match using the “A” target at 600 yards. There were no 300 yard masters in my day, there were only four classifications and a Master was expected to shoot at all ranges
I used several rifles to include:
300 H&H Winchester Bull Gun (Telescope equipped)
Pre war M70 with a 26’ Titus barrel in 30-06 equipped with Redfield International front and rear sights (My long range NRA target rifle)
Remington 30S with a 26” Douglas barrel in 300H&H (Iron Sights)
Remington 30S with a 26” Douglass barrel in 30-06 (iron sights)
Glass bedded M1903 with Lyman 48 rear and service front sights in 30-06
M1 Garand in 30-06
280 Remington on a model new model 70 action using a 28” Douglas premium air gauged barrel with a 9” twist.

The popular round for the 1000yd “any rifle-any sight” match was the 300 H&H. Later on the 300 Norma magnum increased in popularity. The 300 Winchester Magnum had not yet made it appearance. Some shooter tried the 300 Weatherby Magnums but encountered accuracy problems. It was thought that the increased velocity caused additional friction, ergo heat, and the core became soft in the bullet and shifted. I once tried some 30 caliber Remington Palma Match bullets in my 300 H&H and found that they disintegrated in flight. I contacted Remington and found the Palma Match bullets were intended for 30-06 velocities only and would not take Magnum velocities. After Trenin(sp?) won the Wimbledon at Perry with a 7mm, there was a lot of interest in the 7mm. Because barrel life was so short, it soon fell into disfavor.
After WWII long range bullets were short t in supply. ABC made some and if you could obtain them, 180gr Western Super Match bullets were good. Finally Serra started making the 180 gr Full Patch Matchking which became the standard. Later on the 190 gr and the 200 gr Matchkings became popular. Sierra introduced a 220 grain 30 caliber bullet but I do not know how it worked out. I bought about 1000 Winchester 200 gr match bullets but never tried them. Hornaday introduced the 162 grain 7mm hollow point match bullet that seemed to work well in my 280 Remington. I shot it at a1000 yard several times and shot some good scores but the “X” cont was low compared to the 30 caliber.
In the M1 and the M14, later LC Match 62 and on was the preferred round for long range. Sgt Plaaja, shooting the NM M14 rifle using LC M118 ammo used to give the Bull Gun shooters a run for their money.
Some army shooter used “Mexican Match” (pulled the M72 bullets and replaced them with the 168 gr hollow point Sierra International bullet). It worked well up to about 800 yards, but at the velocity achievable with the 7.62/308 round, the velocity of the projectile crossed the sonic barrier and accuracy became erratic. Some shooter used the old solid gas plug in the M1, bored a hole in it to reduce pressure and tried heavier bullets, but the results were not spectacular. Besides if one wee caught using such an M1 as a “service rifle” he would be immediately disqualified. I never tried the 7.62/308 at 1000 because in m Long range 3006 Winchester with the Titus barrel, I could approach Magnum velocities, and in those days velocity was the watch word.
For powder IMR 4064 (up to 600 yards) and IMR4350 or H4831} were the most popular. In the 7.62/308, I sometimes used Hercules HiVel #2. It gave higher velocities than the IMR powders. It was a nitroglycerin based powder and more erosive that the IMR powders. It was also more sensitive to temperature. If one loaded a round into the chamber and was delayed for any period of time, it was always wise to replace the round with a cooler round to avoid a high shot.
In my shooting days, most of the time it was with the cloth 10X shooting jackets. There were no rests allowed. You cinched up in a cloth coat and a leather sling and fired away. Masters always fired in the first relay. At 1000 yards most matches allowed two sighters (but some allowed none).
For telescope, mostly I saw the 1 ½’ or 1 ¼ inch Unertl with external adjustments The Redfield 3200 and the 6400 were not available, occasionally one saw a Lyman Target Spot . Most of us used a scorebooks with targets marked in MOA. For large adjustments, ne used the mechanical adjustments. For smaller adjustments, one just held over using the score book reference. I used a 10X as Roy Dunlap indicated that you could not see bullet holes at 600 or 1000 and a 10x allowed you to judge the wind very well. I once tried as small bore scope with a 20X magnification and it drove me crazy Your heart beat would cause the scope to apparently move the height of the target.
Now that I have probably bored you to tears I shall close this little narrative.

[Bill D]

You and I are of the same era. “Been there, done that” went through my head as I read your post. Those were the days. Nowadays they use scopes on their “mouse guns”. Well, I ain’t never!!!!

[Cosine26]

Long Range Shooting 2(In the Dark Ages)
Perhaps I should have named my previous post as this. I neglected to mention a couple of scopes:
The 2” Unertl (Incidentally the inch measurement of Unertl scopes, refers to the size of the objective lens)
The BALVAR 24 by Bausch and Lomb ( A magnificent but over weight, overpriced wonder to behold)
Internal adjustment in those days were not reliable enough to be trusted for target shooting. Most target scope came with to adjusting rings that fitted on to blocks, usually on the receiver and the barrel. Standard separation was 7.2” which provided MA adjustment. Most scope adjustment were ¼ MOA on Unertl, Lyman etc. Most of these developments were influenced by the M1903 rifle.
The forward target mount was a square with bosses at 12 and 3 o’clock. The target mounts were mounted on the scope blocks. The front block was located on the barrel 7.2' forward of the rear block that was located on the receiver ring. At 7 o’clock was a spring loaded plunger that forced the telescope tube against the two bosses. The aft target mount contained two micrometric adjustment knobs: one at 12 o’clock and one at 3 o’clock that were connected to the elevation and windage plungers to move the scope body. The thread sizes were calibrated so that with 7.2” mounting difference of the target blocks, they provided ¼ MOA adjustments. In the rear mount at the 7 o’clock position was a spring loaded plunger that that forced the telescope up against the two adjustment bosses. On top of the telescope tube was a a rail that road in the slot on the front mount that prevented rotation of the scope. The scope was free to move backwards and forward in the mounts. Unertl scopes came equipped with a recoil spring. As the rifle was fired the inertia of the scope tended to keep in it same special position The spring would return the telescope to its original position. It worked OK in small bore, but in big bore it worked too well so the spring was usually disconnected or removed. If the spring were in place and the rifle fired the rifle recoiled while the telescope tended to stay in the same special position. As the rifle recoiled the scope pushed against the spring to return the scope to the original position. Now the rifle was closer to the shooters eye so that when the spring drove the telescope back it usually hit the shooter. That is why the spring was not used in HiPower competition. There is always a little clearance in a slot in the mount and the and groove in the mount so that the rotation is not always consistent. In practice, the shooter adjusted a blocking clamp on the telescope tube at the proper position to provide proper eye relief. The usual procedure was, when getting ready to fire, the shooter pulled the telescope back against the clamping ring with a slight twist. He then pushed the scope tube down against the rear plunger and let it return to its normal position. This took out the entire backlash or insured that it was the same from shot to shot. Fire the shot, Pull the tube back against the clamp ring with a twisting motion, and push the scope tube against the plunger. Because there was always back lash in the adjustments, the shooter used the elevation and windage adjustment to get on target and to make large adjustments. During firing, for slight ¼ or ½ minute adjustment, the shooter usually just moved the crosshair over by the amount needed.
The Redfield 3200 and th3 Redfield 6400 were the first target scope that came out with reliable internal adjustment. They worked well for small bore but I never saw them used in big bore shooting.
With the advent of Silhouette matches, the requirement for accurate internal adjustment as the weight of the target scope took the rig out of the weight requirement. A friend of mine worked with Weaver to develop the “T” line of scopes which were very popular with Silhouette shooters. Weaver was still in El Paso and was a privately owned company. The company was eventually sold to Winchester who shut the line down. I would assume that this shooting as considered long range shooting for it involved shooting sporting rifles off hand at distances up to 500 meters.
The BALVAR 24 was a horse of a different color. It was variable power, from 6 to 24 and had internal adjustments. The weight of the scope (~2+lbs) plus the $239+ price caused it not to be very popular. I never saw one on the firing line. It must have been a magnificent sight to see. When coupled with a 12 to 14 pound bull gun, it took a gorilla to hold it for the thirty minutes plus that a 1000 yard stage took.
Below is a copy of the 1000 yard page from a Sloan Score Book. As you can see MOS's are Marked for holing off a few MOA. The grid is in MOA. I could not find my new score book with the new 1000 yard taget'
FWIW

https://imgur.com/a/X0tBmAz

[p246]

Thanks Cosine for your memories. Distance depends on match here. Some of the PRS stuff around here is MOA targets at distances 600 and in with a sprinkling of longer targets. One of the other contests I try and do is MOA plus targets starting at 300 yards. You advance back to 1900 yards 100 yards at a time. I have never made it to 1900, as I have choked before that distance. As far as scopes, in my early days it was all Leupold. Now I have added a Bushnell HDMR and an IOR Texas Raider. I am looking for another scope and got to play with a Minox ZP5 and was impressed. But right now there are more options for Alpha and Beta scopes than I ever remember. I love the challenge of shooting st longer ranges. Some days I do pretty good, but I have days where I xxxx the bed with no good reason. As of right now I shoot 260 Remington and 300 Win Mag. There are some new 6.5 class rounds but I’ve sticked to what I know. 300 WM is still popular but 260 has been eclipsed by the creedmoor. The very new round showing up is 6.5 SAUM and 6.5PRS.