Random thoughts on religion...

[Vern Humphrey]

I believe part of the dust up in the OP was the use of a church in The Vatican to host an Episcopal service. The Episcopalians and other Anglicans along with the Lutherans are sort of Catholic lite in that their services can look very Catholic from the outside. Anyhow, those Episcopalians didn't jump through the proper hoops and it caused a big blow up with the Catholics because the people who authorized this didn't have the authority to do it and if the people who did have the authority had been consulted it would have never happened.

The problem dates back to the Gnostics of the First century and a couple of hundred years later. They tried to hijack Christianity, claiming they had "secret" knowledge. Ireneus, the Bishop of Lugdunum (modern Lyons in France) defended orthodox Christianity. He contacted all the churches founded by Apostles and asked if their founding apostles had left them any secret knowledge, and they all replied that they had not.

Since then, the Church has emphasized the Apostolic Succession -- all valid bishops must be able to trace their ordination back to an Apostle. The Catholic, Orthodox and Nestorian Churches can do this, but the Episcopalians and Lutherans cannot.

It wasn't a matter of the Episcopalians "jumping through the proper hoops," it was lack of the Apostolic Succession that was objectionable.

[Art]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

[lyman]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

[Vern Humphrey]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

All Protestant churches are offshoots of the Catholic Church, or offshoots of an offshoot of the Catholic Church.

[Vern Humphrey]

I guess I did not make myself clear, again. If the Episcopalians had gone through the proper channels they wouldn't have been given permission to have the service. The only reason the got there was because they didn't go through the proper channels.

That's correct. The Catholic Church does not recognize Episcopalian or Anglican orders (ordinations.)

[Art]

Episcopalians are part of or derived from the Anglian Church, so in theory there would be no way to trace back any ordination,
but then again, it was started by Henry XIII, and technically an off shot of the Catholic Church,, correct?

Not far from the truth at all but only as far as form goes. An Episcopalian is not a Catholic even though their services are extremely similar. As a matter of fact if you went to the
Episcopal service I mentioned above you would probably think you were at Mass if you were a Catholic unless you were paying really close attention which was also an issue with the Catholics regarding the service at the Vatican. Lutheran services are very similar in form as well.

For quite a while now, as a result of a a growing split on doctrine within the Episcopal church on mainly sexual issues; the Roman Catholic Church has accepted ordained Episcopal Priests who have left the Episcopal communion over moral concerns into the church and ordained some of them as Catholic Priests. Most of these new ex Episcopal Catholic priests are married and have been exempted from the vow of celibacy.

[Vern Humphrey]

Not far from the truth at all. Episcopal and Catholic services are extremely similar. As a matter of fact if you went to the Episcopal service I mentioned you would probably think you were at Mass if you were a Catholic unless you were paying really close attention which was also an issue with the Catholics regarding the service at the Vatican. Lutheran services are very similar as well.

For quite a while now, as a result of a a growing split on doctrine within the Episcopal church on mainly sexual issues; the Roman Catholic Church has accepted ordained Episcopal Priests who have left the Episcopal communion over moral concerns as Catholic Priests. Most of these new ex Episcopal Catholic priests are married and have been exempted from the vow of celibacy.

That's true.

The Catholic Church is divided into two great branches, Eastern and Western. The Eastern Branch has 28 different rites (confusingly enough, sometimes called "churches") such as the Syro-Malabar rite in India, the Coptic rite in Egypt, and so on. The Western Branch until recently had only one rite, the Roman rite. Within the last few years a new rite has been created, the Anglican rite. This was done to welcome Episcopalian parishes and dioceses that came over to the Catholic Church. Their priests can be married (although bishops cannot) and they still use the Book of Common Prayer.

[Art]

That's true.

The Catholic Church is divided into two great branches, Eastern and Western. The Eastern Branch has 28 different rites (confusingly enough, sometimes called "churches") such as the Syro-Malabar rite in India, the Coptic rite in Egypt, and so on. The Western Branch until recently had only one rite, the Roman rite. Within the last few years a new rite has been created, the Anglican rite. This was done to welcome Episcopalian parishes and dioceses that came over to the Catholic Church. Their priests can be married (although bishops cannot) and they still use the Book of Common Prayer.

Rarely they take the Priest without the congregation. Larry Gipson who was the Rector at St Martin's in Houston, the largest Episcopal Church in The United States, Where he was pastor to ex President George H.W. Bush converted to Roman Catholicism and was ordained into the Roman Catholic Church on his own where he rose to the rank of Monsignor pastoring a traditional Catholic parish, St Gregory the Great in Mobile, Ala. Fr. Gipson was also a married man. It works out for everybody. The ex Episcopal folks get a friendlier environment and the Catholics get help with their clergy shortage.

[Vern Humphrey]

Rarely they take the Priest without the congregation. Larry Gipson who was the Rector at St Martin's in Houston, the largest Episcopal Church in The United States, Where he was pastor to ex President George H.W. Bush converted to Roman Catholicism and was ordained into the Roman Catholic Church on his own where he rose to the rank of Monsignor pastoring a traditional Catholic parish, St Gregory the Great in Mobile, Ala. Fr. Gipson was also a married man. It works out for everybody. The ex Episcopal folks get a friendlier environment and the Catholics get help with their clergy shortage.

For a long time Episcopalian priests have been able to join the Catholic Church and be ordained.

[Art]

For a long time Episcopalian priests have been able to join the Catholic Church and be ordained.

yep

[blackhawknj]

Years ago I knew a man, he was ordained as a Presbyterian minister, was married and expecting their first child, and ended up becoming a married Catholic priest. I read of one Catholic diocese that had an ordination program for older men who had married, had families. IIRC the rule in the Eastern churches is a parish priest can marry, if you want to ascend to the higher ranks you must remain celibate.
Henry VIII declared himself Supreme Head of the Church in England so he could divorce Catherine of Aragon because she had failed to provide him with a male heir. For a variety of reasons England allied itself with the Protestants, the Anglican Church ended up sort of Catholic in form and Protestant in spirit.

[dryheat]

Religion talk is a little like car talk. When I went to our country Baptist church us kids huddled around and the smart kids could blurt out Matthew, Mark,Luke and John by the numbers. Why? It's training. I know that some of those kids went on to be very successful in life. I'm going to quote Yuval Noah Harari because I'm reading his book a lot.

-The Mauryan Empire in the 3rd century BC took as its mission the dissemination of Buddha's teachings to an ignorant world. The Muslim caliphs received a divine mandate to spread the Prophet's revelation, peacefully if possible but by the sword if necessary.- [and if you got a little swag OK].

-It is the first worlds moral obligation to bring the benefits of democracy and human rights to the third world even if it takes cruise missiles and F-16's- We, at least me, knows that's ahh...

Religion is mythical. It was what was invented and used to set the masses (and little kids) straight. Now we are too smart for that, or too lazy to learn a little of it. Teach your children well. Let them make their own decisions. But a little of it hangs on and that can't hurt.

[blackhawknj]

The religious figure who is exposed as a fraud and a hypocrite is a stock figure in literature-Elmer Gantry, e.g., and is justly held up to scorn and ridicule, the thieving and corrupt politician-where is the Great American Novel that gave that individual a label ? The Joe Paterno/Gerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State quickly went into the
Memory Hole. Everyone remembers Himmler and Heydrich, who remembers Yagoda and Yezhov, Stalin's police chiefs who made the Gestapo look like a real road show operation ?

[Vern Humphrey]

The religious figure who is exposed as a fraud and a hypocrite is a stock figure in literature-Elmer Gantry, e.g., and is justly held up to scorn and ridicule, the thieving and corrupt politician-where is the Great American Novel that gave that individual a label ? The Joe Paterno/Gerry Sandusky scandal at Penn State quickly went into the
Memory Hole. Everyone remembers Himmler and Heydrich, who remembers Yagoda and Yezhov, Stalin's police chiefs who made the Gestapo look like a real road show operation ?

There is a reason for that. If we were exposed to the reality of communism/socialism many of our most powerful politicians would be street people.

[RED]

I am not smart enough to know God's thoughts, I will just try to be a good person and see how that works out.

I once picked up a motto and have tried my best to follow it. It goes something like rhis:

I WILL NOT LIE,CHEAT, OR STEAL, NOR WILL I TOLERATE THISE WHO DO!

Once I took a test for a job. One of the questions was: Have you ever stolen from your employer?

I answered yes!

I had accidentally taken home pencils, pens, stickies, box cutters, etc. I was the only one that answered yes,and, yes, I got the job.