30-06 armor piercing ammo

[bruce]

IIRC, when a decision was being made about caliber for the M-1 rifle, one reason Gen. Mac Arthur insisted on the .30-06 cartridge was that a "infantry rifle simply must be able to shoot through things." Sincerely. bruce.

[Vern Humphrey]

IIRC, when a decision was being made about caliber for the M-1 rifle, one reason Gen. Mac Arthur insisted on the .30-06 cartridge was that a "infantry rifle simply must be able to shoot through things." Sincerely. bruce.

Now if he'd only done away with the en bloc clip and substituted a sheet metal magazine.

[Art]

IIRC, when a decision was being made about caliber for the M-1 rifle, one reason Gen. Mac Arthur insisted on the .30-06 cartridge was that a "infantry rifle simply must be able to shoot through things." Sincerely. bruce.

Maybe, The .276 Pedersen cartridge driving a 125 gr bullet at about 2750 feet per second was definitely not up to the .30-06 in either penetration or maximum effective range. But the deciding reason was the U.S. had many millions of rounds of .30-06 ammunition on hand that would have been made obsolete by the new .276 cal. ammunition. Also, the rifle caliber machine guns, including the BAR would have to be modified to take the new cartridge or replaced. In the middle of the great depression just getting a new rifle approved was a very big deal. New ammo was absolutely out of the question. One thing about the .276 round I would have liked was the M1 would have had a capacity of 10 with that cartridge instead of 8 rounds of .30.06.

[Art]

Now if he'd only done away with the en bloc clip and substituted a sheet metal magazine.

That would be a great idea but unfortunately the Ordnance Corps. folks didn't like the detatachable magazine fearing it would get lost or be damaged. That didn't seem to stop the French, Russians or Germans from using sheet metal detachable box magazines on their contemporary semi auto rifles. Mr. Garand came up with a brilliant, though imperfect solution to this dumb requirement and all in all his design was far superior to the Rooskie Tokarevs and German Tokarev based G43s.

Fortunately the M14 rectified the problem.

[Vern Humphrey]

That would be a great idea but unfortunately the Ordnance Corps. folks didn't like the detatachable magazine fearing it would get lost or be damaged. That didn't seem to stop the French, Russians or Germans from using sheet metal magazines on their contemporary semi auto rifles. Mr. Garand came up with a brilliant, though imperfect solution to this dumb requirement and all in all his design was far superior to the Rooskie Tokarevs and German Tokarev based G43.

The Garand was a superior design, to be sure -- it's flaw was it was hard to manufacture. During WWII, Winchester was our only commercial source of Garands. Eliminating the en bloc would have made the rifle much easier to produce.

[Allen]

The Garand was a superior design, to be sure -- it's flaw was it was hard to manufacture. During WWII, Winchester was our only commercial source of Garands. Eliminating the en bloc would have made the rifle much easier to produce.

Which is what the Italians did creating the BM59.

[Art]

The Garand was a superior design, to be sure -- it's flaw was it was hard to manufacture. During WWII, Winchester was our only commercial source of Garands. Eliminating the en bloc would have made the rifle much easier to produce.

Big + 1 Absolutely!! The complex feed system was a big contributor to that manufacturing problem. The box magazine on the M1 Carbine made it amenable to manufacture by a large number of companies. It was manufactured in vast numbers over a very short period of time. I can't imagine juke box companies or manufacturers of business machines making M1 Garands.

[Vern Humphrey]

Big + 1 Absolutely!! The complex feed system was a big contributor to that manufacturing problem. The box magazine on the M1 Carbine made it amenable to manufacture by a large number of companies. It was manufactured in vast numbers over a very short period of time. I can't imagine juke box companies or manufacturers of business machines making M1 Garands.

In fact the en bloc clip was eliminated in the M14 -- which is one hell of a rifle in it's own sake.

[lyman]

The Garand was a superior design, to be sure -- it's flaw was it was hard to manufacture. During WWII, Winchester was our only commercial source of Garands. Eliminating the en bloc would have made the rifle much easier to produce.

well,

depending on the source, the 2 made between 4.8 to 5.4 Million rifles,

and remember, there were 10 makers of Carbines, including Winchester

BAR, 1919's, M2's 1911's, Thompsons, Grease Guns, and shotguns for the troops, (and modifed models for Armor and Air) etc etc being made at that time,


there may not have been any capacity left for another commercial operation to make them,

[Major Tom]

Winchester was the only company making garands during WW2? I have a 1944 Springfield garand.

[Johnny P]

Winchester was the only company making garands during WW2? I have a 1944 Springfield garand.

The key word is "commercial".

"Winchester was our only commercial source of Garands."

[Vern Humphrey]

well,

depending on the source, the 2 made between 4.8 to 5.4 Million rifles,

and remember, there were 10 makers of Carbines, including Winchester

BAR, 1919's, M2's 1911's, Thompsons, Grease Guns, and shotguns for the troops, (and modifed models for Armor and Air) etc etc being made at that time,


there may not have been any capacity left for another commercial operation to make them,

Except the Army let contracts for other suppliers and various companies bid on and won those contracts, but were not able to deliver rifles that met the Army's standards. It wasn't until after the war that other companies managed to successfully manufacture Garands.

[lyman]

Except the Army let contracts for other suppliers and various companies bid on and won those contracts, but were not able to deliver rifles that met the Army's standards. It wasn't until after the war that other companies managed to successfully manufacture Garands.

who?

Winchester had issues, (they did with the 1917 and P14 too for a bit) but they got the Garand bits going good , as in they worked,



post war,, as in Korea and beyond, was just International and H&R, (commercial, and Springfield was still a Govt arsenal) both had teething pains and supply issues but worked as well if not better than Winchester

Winchester also got the M14 contract too, including replacement barrels in the 60's,


not taking up for them too much, but they made a ton of stuff for the US and kept up the commercial side a bit too,


shame they are nothing but a name now

[Vern Humphrey]

International Harvester and H&R had contracts to build Garands in WWII. They were not able to produce rifles to standard, and all they produced had to be re-worked at Springfield.

[Allen]

International Harvester and H&R had contracts to build Garands in WWII. They were not able to produce rifles to standard, and all they produced had to be re-worked at Springfield.

Believe these 2 made Garands after WWII only.