Strange Japanese Rifle (?)

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  • mhb
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 420

    #16
    I may not have made it clear...

    that there are 2 types of .22 Springfield stock: 1: The 'for issue' type, which has grasping grooves and a lot more drop in the stock (as well as a less sharply curved pistol grip) and a buttplate of the same style and dimension as the service stock, and:

    2: The NRA style .22 stock, which is proportioned exactly the same as the NRA Sporter stock, has no grasping grooves, and uses the same buttplate as the NRA Sporter. This was the standard stock supplied on the .22 rifle sold to NRA members, though they could also buy the 'for issue' style - of which E.C. Crossman said '...you could not run fast enough to give one to a real rifleman'. That may be a bit harsh, but the NRA stock really is much better for the sportsman/target shooter, and it is the NRA stock which I believe matches the contours of that in the photo. It definitely does not have grasping grooves, normally, so that aspect of the photo is still subject to debate, in my mind.

    The rifle could also be a .30 Sporter made and/or stocked by someone other than SA, or a .22 with a custom stock of similar profile to the NRA Sporter/.22 sales stock.

    Later:
    In the interest of completeness, and at risk of adding further confusion, I should note that the original 1922 stock, which was used on the 1922 ca. .30 Match rifle and the first few of the original 1922 cal. .22 rifles, while of the contour of the later NRA style stock, did, in fact, have grasping grooves. Just over 2000 1922 .22 rifles were made, and fewer sold to NRA members, so that the number of such with grasping grooves must be small, indeed. Nearly all of the original 1922 .22 rifles were overhauled and updated, first to the M1 specification, and later, to M2 style: in both cases, rifles which came back through the Armory were re-fitted with the later, grooveless stock, and the receivers marked to show the update as 'MI', and/or 'MII'. Those rifles made as M2s initially are so-marked on the receiver, and, if fitted with the NRA stock, have no grasping grooves. The 1922 and M1 .22 rifles have a headless cocking piece, while the M2 has a larger-diameter, thinner cocking piece than the cal. .30 rifles, and I believe the standard cocking piece is visible in the photo. The 1922 cal. .22 rifles have a magazine which protrudes a good half inch below the floorplate, while the M1 and M2 types have a shorter magazine which can still be distinguished when in the rifle.

    The 1922 cal .30 match rifles, which are truly rare, have a unique 24" heavy barrel, an unmistakeable front sight base integral with the muzzle of the barrel, and a headless cocking piece - and the rifle in the photo is not that.

    In the end, I don't think there is enough information clearly visible in the photo to make a definite identification possible.


    mhb - Mike
    Last edited by mhb; 06-12-2013, 06:59.
    Sancho! My armor!

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    • dave
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 6778

      #17
      My stock is as #1. I installed issue recoil bolts in it and a RI .30 cal action/barrel and used it for target shooting for years. Lyman peep and issue front. It is a very accurate rifle, haven't shot it for years tho. Thanks for the info.
      You can never go home again.

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      • mhb
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 420

        #18
        You are welcome...

        for the information.

        And, FWIW, I did essentially the same thing with my first 1903 - also a RIA - when the original barrel wore-out. I installed a 4-groove Remington 03A3 barrel, a Lyman 48 and 17A, and mounted the barreled action in the issue M2 .22 stock (I'd have preferred the 'Sales' type stock, but didn't have one at the time). I did not install stock bolts, but did glass-bed the action.

        It shot extremely well.

        mhb - Mike

        Originally posted by dave
        My stock is as #1. I installed issue recoil bolts in it and a RI .30 cal action/barrel and used it for target shooting for years. Lyman peep and issue front. It is a very accurate rifle, haven't shot it for years tho. Thanks for the info.
        Sancho! My armor!

        Comment

        • Guamsst
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 9753

          #19
          Who is saying it has to be an issued rifle or as produced? Why can't it be a custom sporting rifle?
          I own firearms not to fight against my government, but to ensure I will not have to.

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          • mhb
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 420

            #20
            Actually...

            nobody's saying that, and I think we covered that possibility quite early in the discussion. The rest of the thread got diverted into which of the possible SA-produced stocks it might be, and which of those it most resembles.

            mhb - Mike
            Sancho! My armor!

            Comment

            • Guamsst
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 9753

              #21
              Originally posted by mhb
              nobody's saying that, and I think we covered that possibility quite early in the discussion. The rest of the thread got diverted into which of the possible SA-produced stocks it might be, and which of those it most resembles.

              mhb - Mike
              Kind of my point. It seems like you guys pretty much ruled it out but then started grasping for rarer possibilities, when the most likely answer is that it was a sporter rifle used by some officer to hunt small game.
              I own firearms not to fight against my government, but to ensure I will not have to.

              Comment

              • mhb
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 420

                #22
                Well...

                having already said that the thread sorta went off on a discussion of unlikely alternatives, I'll point out that it wasn't me who lead the parade. I was and am willing to discuss alternatives proposed in the process, though my own belief, based on what can be seen in the photo, has not changed: the rifle shown is most likely a sporterized 1903 Springfield.

                mhb - Mike

                Originally posted by Guamsst
                Kind of my point. It seems like you guys pretty much ruled it out but then started grasping for rarer possibilities, when the most likely answer is that it was a sporter rifle used by some officer to hunt small game.
                Sancho! My armor!

                Comment

                • Guamsst
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 9753

                  #23
                  agreed
                  I own firearms not to fight against my government, but to ensure I will not have to.

                  Comment

                  • Devil Dog
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 450

                    #24
                    What Japanese soldier would carry a .22 rifle in combat?

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                    • mhb
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 420

                      #25
                      I don't think...

                      that anyone suggested the rifle was actually a .22, though it could have been. It appears to be a sporting rifle, and speculation was that it was a sporterized 1903 Springfield in .30-06.
                      The rifle is almost certainly a captured or surrendered piece, and not what the Japanese soldier would have used in combat.
                      The topic got sidetracked on the features of the stock, itself, which led to a discussion of the various types of 'sporter-appearing' stocks used by Springfield Armory on its NRA Sporter rifles in cal. .30 and its several models of .22 rifles: both calibers were furnished with very similar stocks.
                      However, at the end, we don't have enough information to say with certainty exactly what the pictured rifle is, except that it is not a purely military type.

                      mhb - Mike

                      Originally posted by Devil Dog
                      What Japanese soldier would carry a .22 rifle in combat?
                      Sancho! My armor!

                      Comment

                      • Guamsst
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 9753

                        #26
                        Nothing about the photo would prevent it from being a .22 or any other form of craziness. I have seen plenty of soldiers holding up some seriously stupid war trophies. You don't get to pick and choose what the enemy leaves behind.
                        I own firearms not to fight against my government, but to ensure I will not have to.

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