So called "Philippine Constabulary" rifle

[Rick the Librarian]

I saw this Krag on Gunbroker and generally, I ignore those I see advertised as "Philippine Constabulary" rifles and/or carbines. However, I did see the "block" JFC stamp, which I rarely see on Krags. I believe Brophy did say was seen on some PC carbines or rifles.

Thought I'd throw it out there for your consideration:

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/615736607

[dave]

What is the price, I have always wanted one, even tho it is probably a 'school rifle'.

[Dick Hosmer]

Thanks, Rick. However, someone has attempted to "enhance" the [JFC] cartouche, visible at lower edge, and really screwed with the (P). Serial number range is possibly wrong - at the very least it is not from a carbine area. Rear sight is questionable, and unusual in that most genuine "school guns" (it is absolutely NOT a PCR!) use M1901C sights. The barrel turning/crowning looks a little hinky. I'd pass.

[musketshooter]

What is the "correct" serial number range. I have two rifle/carbines I would like to check.

[Dick Hosmer]

Most (seemingly) "right" ones I have seen are in the 220-230K range. Of course, it is a VERY easy model to fake, and there is no absolute hard and fast guideline to follow. A small point, not widely known, is that -since they were intended for use with the 1905 bayonet - the front of the bayonet lug should be beveled like that of a 1903. It is very easy to file a little flat - what counts is that the flat should show age and wear commensurate with the rest of the band.

[Kragrifle]

Looks very dubious. Generally the PC rifles were built on 1899 carbine frames, not 1898 rifles. Bill Mook claimed even the proper appearing PC's were just "school guns" but there are well built examples out there that look to be consistent with Springfield workmanship. I have several including one with a 24 inch barrel.

[Kragrifle]

The 24 inch barrel is not likely of Springfield origin.

[JimF]

Generally the PC rifles were built on 1899 carbine frames, not 1898 rifles. . . . .

How does a "carbine frame" differ from a "rifle frame"?

Like a trapdoor receiver, I thought these receivers were all the same!

[musketshooter]

The serial numbers on mine are 226443 and 287918. Both are '99 carbine receivers.

[5MadFarmers]

I believe Brophy did say was seen on some PC carbines or rifles.

That was a swing and a miss. Coyle didn't work in Manila. Kind of hard to argue with the reports from Manila on them doing the work. Reasons detailed in the book along with numbers.

and unusual in that most genuine "school guns" (it is absolutely NOT a PCR!) use M1901C sights.

1898/1901/1902. The sight soup. The 1902 replacing the 1901 was one bit I had a hard time figuring out. Then I reviewed the blueprints for the M-1903 and it became crystal clear.

Yes, they should have 1901 sights.

Bill Mook claimed even the proper appearing PC's were just "school guns"

Whereas Brophy blew it on these Mook was correct and he even knew why.

If you'd like the rest of the story of the PCs it's on page 262 of Lieutenant Colonel John George's "Shots Fired in Anger." Page 262.

Dat's dem.

[Dick Hosmer]

How does a "carbine frame" differ from a "rifle frame"?

Like a trapdoor receiver, I thought these receivers were all the same!

The two receivers vary only in their date markings - "1898" for rifles, "1899" for carbines. The importance of such a distinction escapes me, but it obviously mattered to the OD at the time. Actually, when you come to think of it, that fetish is actually a huge (if unintended) boon to the collectors of today, by exposing any number of "incorrect" pieces now offered for sale.

[5MadFarmers]

The two receivers vary only in their date markings - "1898" for rifles, "1899" for carbines.

Which, "date," is the crux.

The importance of such a distinction escapes me, but it obviously mattered to the OD at the time.

With the receivers having a "date" stamp (1894/1895/1896) much confusion resulted. It came down from on high that they'd have a "Model" marking right? Model of 1896. Piece one.
Model changes when interchangeability is lost. Piece two.
The "Model of 1898" carbine existed. Piece three.

Model of 1899 was up next. Differentiated them from the Model of 1898 carbine.

Early on in those games so it was kind of messy. They overstamped some "1898" receivers to "1899" for carbines yet didn't overstamp the Model of 1898 carbines with Model of 1899 when those were upgraded. Messy.

[Rick the Librarian]

Thanks, gentlemen, I assumed as much - but just wanted to run it by you.