A further "pointed" look at my 1895 Winchester-Lee

[Rick the Librarian]

A gentleman on Facebook had a Winchester/Lee bayonet to sell me for $285 and I bit. I thought you'd like to see some pictures. As you can see, it was manufactured by Remington. Gary Cunningham mentioned that a few W/L bayonets may had been made commercially. The only markings I could find on the bayonet was the manufacturer's name.

Comments?

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[5MadFarmers]

Nice bayonet.

I have a hazy memory of poking at the bayonets when I bought my rifle. The one I bought came with the bayonet. Seemed to be three different bayonet variations from what that hazy recall is telling me.

Which is strange as I can understand two but not three.

Initial order was for 10,000 bayonets. They then went back for 200 more. Those could be marked differently as it was a different purchase but not long after the initial order. Presumably when they bought the second batch of rifles they bought bayonets. That could explain the three. Then again it might not. The 10,200 from the first go (plus the extras) were all delivered by January 1897. Order was placed in April of 1896.

Come with a scabbard? Those were made by Ames - not Remington. To a Winchester design.

Gary Cunningham mentioned that a few W/L bayonets may had been made commercially.

Gary generally knows what he's going on about. That said, the backdrop of that really has me curious. "Why?" Surplus market purchasers normally don't have bayonets made. Each gun had a bayonet. So what would be the point and by whom?

After the Krag book was out I ran into some interesting information on those Winchester-Lee rifles. Would have included it but the book was out.

[Rick the Librarian]

No, just the bayonet.

Gary mentions the 10,000 you mentioned plus "another 5,000" in late 1898. The 3rd variation he said was unmarked except for a Navy proof stamp (which is occasionally found on the other two) - Nathan Twining (T in a triangle).

I can only guess on the commercial bayonets but the W/L was sold in small commercial quantities - I suppose for military schools, ceremonial guard units, etc.

[5MadFarmers]

No, just the bayonet.

Gary mentions the 10,000 you mentioned plus "another 5,000" in late 1898. The 3rd variation he said was unmarked except for a Navy proof stamp (which is occasionally found on the other two) - Nathan Twining (T in a triangle).

Makes sense. 10,000 rifles and 10,000 bayonets originally. The extra 200 bayonets were ordered a bit later as a reserve. The second rifle purchase was 5,000 so that many bayonets, thereabouts, follows the pattern.

I'd have to dig mine out but I remember it as being that triangle T thing.

I can only guess on the commercial bayonets but the W/L was sold in small commercial quantities - I suppose for military schools, ceremonial guard units, etc.

That makes perfect sense. Hadn't considered that. It was a "military rifle." Making bayonets for them to sell them to interested military parties makes complete sense.



After bayonet it's the belt. Then suspenders and BGI cleaning cord. Not necessarily in that order.

Suspenders have, historically, been a problem for me. Belts find me but suspenders? not so much.

[Rick the Librarian]

Wow ...nice! I thought I was going out of my way to find the bayonet! Would like a sling, but I suppose they a zillion dollars!!

[Dan Shapiro]

Good luck on finding a sling. Finally purchased a repro from S&S Firearms. Good price on the bayonet. Mine came with a sheath, so I ended up spending another $100. It's marked on the ricasso "Winchester Repeating Arms Co."

[Rick the Librarian]

Trouble with the sling is I also need a lower butt swivel. Wonder if S&S has one of those?

[Dan Shapiro]

If you purchase the sling from S&S, it comes with a sling swivel.

http://www.ssfirearms.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LN34

[Kragrifle]

Lee bayonets variations

Triangle T-most common
Winchester- probably second
Remington
Triangle W
Unmarked-least common

Same bayonet with different barrel diameter

Winchester 1895 musket
Blake-very rare

[Rick the Librarian]

Dan, I looked at S&S but looked under "Winchester-Lee," which explains why I didn't find it. Hmmmm ... that sling looks interesting, especially with the swivel included.

[Dan Shapiro]

I had only one problem with the sling......the "C" clip wire that attaches to the forward sling swivel. It's too open. Unless the sling is kept tight, it had a tendency to slip off the swivel. So I put the "C" clip in a vise and compressed the clip to where it just snapped over the swivel....no more problems.

[Rick the Librarian]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks! (I went ahead and ordered one).

[5MadFarmers]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks! (I went ahead and ordered one).

Mind if I hijack your thread and play "Seven Degrees of Separation" for a moment? You have an interest in the Philippines.

Nathan Twining was from a little place named Boscobel. Not real big. There is a prison there but not much else. What they do have is a little A&W restaurant caught in a time-warp. Phones in the booths to call in your order. Nice little place. Reasonably priced.

In the same general area is another little place named Cuba City. Smaller than Boscobel. One street town Cuba City is. Nice little cafe, very inexpensive, and not much else. There is a bar there. The bar was owned and operated by a Marine for the longest time. Said Marine was on Guam when the war ended. Of the many guns I kick myself for not buying was the Arisaka he brought home. It was still in the box he made for it on Guam. I did end up with his uniform. In the pocket was a memorial service thing. One of those little pieces of paper they had at the memorial service for people.

The memorial service was held after the war ended and everybody had made it home. The Marine was from Boscobel. As was his buddy. The buddy had gone into the army and then into airborne. One of the soldiers killed in that big explosion the Japanese set off on Corregidor when it was being retaken. That little memorial service paper had been in that pocket since just after the war.

====

Lee bayonets variations

Triangle T-most common
Winchester- probably second
Remington
Triangle W
Unmarked-least common

Same bayonet with different barrel diameter

Winchester 1895 musket
Blake-very rare

Interesting. I guess if I was wise I'd go look but instead I'm going to just wonder. Triangle T being Twining no doubt. Does that make triangle W Williams? I wonder how many people guess "Winchester" for that but it follows the pattern of the T. George W. Williams. Like Twining he was a Lieutenant Commander about that time assigned to Navy Ordnance.

I guess I could look if it interests me. I'd guess at Williams without any looking.

[butlersrangers]

Eugene Myszkowski, "The Winchester - Lee Rifle", attributes "triangle with W enclosed" to U. S. Navy Inspector Lt. William B. Whitttelsey.

Anthony C. Daum & Charles W. Pate, "U.S. Military Arms Inspector Marks", have W.B.W. (Whittelsey) inspecting rifles purchased by the Navy from Winchester, in April, 1898, to replace rifles destroyed in the N.Y. Navy Yard fire.

[Rick the Librarian]

VERY interesting "hijack". I'm very familiar with that explosion on Corregidor. I find it interesting how many "coincidences" one can run into, also. Yesterday, I received a book in the mail that I had ordered online. It was a "yearbook" of the Washington National Guard in 1939, the year before they were Federalized. Contained in the book was a number of 8x10" photographs taken by the unit's 116th Observation Squadron in the 1930s. One was of the airfield they were based, just outside of Spokane WA (where I grew up) at Felts Field. I spent a lot of time there as a Civil Air Patrol cadet and with my school's aviation club. The other picture was of the squadron's aircraft flying over an uncompleted Grand Coulee Dam, where I taught from 1976-85. The third was of Upper Priest Lake, where I and my family spent several summers. All from a book that the pictures could have easily fallen out or been taken.

If I'm not mistaken, the "naval ordnance officer" Twining was the father of "Marine" Twining, who served on Guadalcanal and other Pacific islands and retired as a colonel or B/G and the other son was "Air Force Twining" who made it well into the general ranks of the Air Force.