Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative Match

[psteinmayer]

The guy shooting the 1941 was Phil Randall... another friend of mine. He routinely crushes me in matches! I was surprised he didn't shoot his Krag because we had talked about him shooting it in the Roosevelt.

Don't you have a couple chargers Phil?

[CJCulpeper]

I tried to talk them into letting me shoot my Krag in the Springfield match once, with the logic that it was made by Springfield Arsenal and says Springfield on it. That didn't float. But if I can't shoot my Krag in their match, why should they be allowed to shot their 03a3s in a match for Krags and 03s. But, if they get real specific, where's that leave Culpepper and his 95, or Lee Navy rifles? Anyway, here's a video Paul's son took with my camera. Must be something wrong with the contrast, my hair don't look that white when I look in the mirror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuCFjCuxEw

So here we have a match that supposedly celebrates the early days of Camp Perry, that rotten Roosevelt (spit) and by extension the Spanish and Philippine Wars and where the main Army only guns of that era were to be allowed in the event. Yet they allowed the 1903A3? I can understand the Remington 1903 since it is the same platform as the SA and RIA rifles. What does the rule book say? Then I guess what was the intent of the guys who dreamed up the event?

As for Krags in the Springfield matches, perhaps the argument should go as the Springfield guns of 1894, 1895, 1896, 1898 and 1899 are referred to names of the original designers and should be included in the Springfield shoots since they were built at the Armory. If they are not allowed then the Springfield Match needs to be opened up to Mauser rifles of the era and renamed the Mauser Match to correctly label the shooting event with the name of the original designer of the gun.

Just thinkin...

added

Maybe we should stop using the name Krag and start using Springfield 1894 or 1899 Springfield when signing up for matches. Nothing is lost and everything can be gained. Even glaciers melt over time.

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm assuming the "problem" with the 1903A3 is the more efficient and better (longer sight radius) rear sight? That seems like a fair complaint to me - they can shoot in other matches.

Since this is a vintage match, supposedly offered solely for the purpose of having fun, some different rules could be added.

(1) More time for reloading in rapid fire?

(2) Limit entries to US-made military repeating rifles assembed during TR's lifetime? OR, issue a very specific list of weapons, including the Lee and 95 Winchester, and STICK TO IT.

Remember, I have zero experience in organized highpower competition.

[psteinmayer]

OUCH! Thanks Paul... now my head hurts! LOL

The logic is certainly flawed. Springfield Match, by rule, includes all rifles of the 1903 receiver design (1903, 1903A1 and 1903A3). However, by definition (using Bob's logic) should include all rifles manufactured at the Springfield armory, would now exclude Remington, RIA, and Smith Corona, and really should include Springfield Garand rifles too! Take it down the Culpepper path, to include rifles of Mauser design, now excludes Krags, but includes Mausers, Cacarnos, Arisakas, etc. Hmmmmmm

Originally, the Vintage Rifle match was intended to include U.S. arms that were not included in the Springfield Rifle class - the Krag and 1917. This was expanded (probably because someone complained loud enough) to include foreign bolt-action military rifles, i.e. Mauser, Nagant, Enfield, Arisaka, etc. Technically, each rifle should be judged of it's own accord. In other words: don't judge a Krag against a Mauser or Nagant. An Arisaka will never be able to compete against a 1917... and so on. In the Vintage Match, they are all classed together, and the waters get pretty murky!

No, I really think we should (IMHO) have the Roosevelt include A.) Krags only... or B.) Krags and 1903s only (to exclude later 1903s of WWII era, even though they technically are 1903s). It really is the only fair way to class the match - limited to rifles of Theodore Roosevelt/early National Rifle Match era only. The match was intended to celebrate Roosevelt as the father of the National Matches and the CMP... and as such, really should stick to the rifles that were allowed in that era!

By the way, in future matches, 1903A3s will be forbidden.

So let it be written... so let it be done!

[Dick Hosmer]

I tried to talk them into letting me shoot my Krag in the Springfield match once, with the logic that it was made by Springfield Arsenal and says Springfield on it. That didn't float. But if I can't shoot my Krag in their match, why should they be allowed to shot their 03a3s in a match for Krags and 03s. But, if they get real specific, where's that leave Culpepper and his 95, or Lee Navy rifles? Anyway, here's a video Paul's son took with my camera. Must be something wrong with the contrast, my hair don't look that white when I look in the mirror! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYuCFjCuxEw

Loved the video, Bob, but do have a question. There seems (to this TOTAL novice) to be a LOT of wasted motion. Having watched a bunch of the Scandinavian shooters shows that the Krag mechanics are handled much differently. Yes I DO realize that the goals are different, but it would seem that using their MO with our time limit and fixed shot count would mean a lot more time for aiming, waiting out a wind gust, etc. Not intending to be critical, just wondering?

[Dick Hosmer]

Paul, did you mean "Thanks Dick", or were you responding to a different post?

[CJCulpeper]

...It really is the only fair way to class the match - limited to rifles of Theodore Roosevelt/early National Rifle Match era only. The match was intended to celebrate Roosevelt as the father of the National Matches and the CMP... and as such, really should stick to the rifles that were allowed in that era!

The original rifles shot at Perry during Roosevelt's (spit) administration were the Krags and low number 1903s. There, I solved the problem. Just allow all Krags and only 1903s made before Noon March 4, 1909.

[psteinmayer]

Paul, did you mean "Thanks Dick", or were you responding to a different post?

Naw... I was referring to Culpepper's post. Yours hadn't actually been posted while I was typing my response.

[psteinmayer]

The original rifles shot at Perry during Roosevelt's (spit) administration were the Krags and low number 1903s. There, I solved the problem. Just allow all Krags and only 1903s made before Noon March 4, 1909.

Perfect! Except for one (small) hiccup - that being low numbered 03s are forbidden to be fired at Camp Perry (due to the heat treatment problems and the associated inherent dangers of shooting them).

[CJCulpeper]

Therefore it will be a Krag only match. We will clean up! The logic is infallible and I am unanimous in that.

[psteinmayer]

Loved the video

LOL Did you notice me having a stove-pipe case at one point? I guess I should pull my bolt back with more gust-o... as my cases just sort of flop out rather than fly. Too used to trying to keep my brass close!

[Roadkingtrax]

Turning away paying match fees is not a smart idea. Allowing others to shoot, and be classified as a 1903a3 was the way to go.

Anyone shoot M1893 Mausers?

[M2Phil]

Krags and M1903's (high number, of whatever era and mfg. since there's no real difference between a 1918 RIA, a 1930 SA, or a 1942 RA) was the way to go, allowing for the 6mm Lee as well, if someone has one to shoot. I think they handled it well by allowing 03A3's *this time* and scoring them according to Springfield match rules. Paul, you had that potential (hair-pulling, wild-eyed rant-inducing) stoppage cleared in a split second. As we well know, they don't usually get resolved so quickly. I don't have any of your chargers but those gizmos work very well, as the video clearly shows. Interesting observations Dick Hosmer, but I didn't notice any wasted motion. Not that there wasn't any, it just never seemed so to my non-Taylorist sensibilities. It'd be worthwhile to learn how Scandinavian shooters differ in their approach.

[madsenshooter]

I know Dick, I'm working on using my middle finger while keeping hold of the bolt, and I actually did it for some shots last year, I just haven't done it enough to be fully proficient at it. Maybe next year. I don't do too bad, watch the muzzle of my rifle in the background. I keep it shouldered while working the bolt, and sometimes while recharging.

[psteinmayer]

If you watch those Scandinavians, they are really slick in their approach, and I'm betting that their loads are very mild too! It appears that they trigger with their pinkies and never let go of the bolt handle.

What I need to practice with is keeping my rifle shouldered while cycling the bolt. It's difficult with my torn shoulder though... but I'm getting better at it.