Discussion Question: Did the M-1 Carbine Inspire the German Assault Rifles?

[Southron]

I have always considered the M-1 Carbine to be the inspiration for the German Assault Rifles like the STG-44.

Here is my reasoning:

Before World War II German Espionage in the U.S. was very active. One thing we have learned since the war is that very early on (like before the war) the Germans had learned all of the secrets of the then "Top Secret" Norden Bomb Sight, even though for security the three different parts of it were manufactured in three different plants under "Top Secret" restrictions.

That being said, there was nothing "Top Secret" about the M-1 Carbine program as the Ordnance Department publicly advertised for manufacturers to submit samples of their own carbine designs for testing at Aberdeen.

After the Winchester designed M-1 Carbine was adopted, the Ordnance Department contracted with different manufacturers to produce the little carbine.This had to raise additional interest of the Germans because the emphasis the Ordnance Department was putting on getting the carbine mass produced by a variety of manufacturers.

After we invaded North Africa, I am sure the Germans captured enough M-1 Carbines and ammo to send samples back to Germany for a full series of tests.

My theory is that the Krauts looked at the M-1 Carbine and then improved on it with their Assault Rifles, i.e., the Germans developed a more powerful cartridge, the 7.92 Kurtz and "upped" the firepower by making their Assault Rifles "Selective Fire" rather than just semi-automatic like the M-1 Carbine.

The M-1 Carbine shares several characteristics with ALL military Assault Rifles ever developed but the most striking one is the use of an "Intermediate Power Cartridge" the M-1 Carbine was the FIRST to do that.

My understanding is that there are tons of captured World War II German documents in the National Archives. Hopefully, one day, a researcher will find the reports of the German Ordnance tests of the M-1 Carbine and and the role it played in inspiring the development of the German Assault Rifles.

So what do you think? Did the M-1 Carbine "Inspire" the development and manufacture of German Assault Rifles?

[Art]

The daddy of all assault rifles was the Federov Avtomat which was designed and put into production in WWI by the Russians. It was a selective fire shoulder weapon fed from a detachable magazine using the 6.5 mm Japanese cartridge since the 7.62 mm Russian round was considered too powerful for such a light weapon. In concept it was the first. These rifles saw limited service in both WWI and WWII.

The M1 Carbine wasn't initially produced with the selective fire capability of a true assault rifle. It's cartridge isn't, in my opinion, truly intermediate; it is ballistically similar to a .357 Magnum pistol cartridge when that round is fired from a rifle. I tend to think of the selective fire M1 carbines as being more like .357 Magnum submachine guns than assault rifles.

Research on an intermediate cartridge was started in Germany in 1934, and in Russia about 1940. The Germans let the first contract to develop a weapon for their intermediate cartridge in 1938. Both Walther an Hanel were working on prototype "sturmgewer" type rifles by 1940 and the first prototype lots were produced in early 1942.

Short answer, no the Germans weren't influenced by the carbine.

[n64atlas]

The Perdersen device of WWI was one of the first "intermediate" rounds, if not the first.

[Art]

The Perdersen device of WWI was one of the first "intermediate" rounds, if not the first.

The .30-18 cartridge used in the Pederson Device is identical to and interchangeable with the 7.65x20mm Longue pistol cartridge used by the French until the early 1960s in their M1935 pistol and MAS 38 submachine gun. Ballistics wise it's a pistol cartridge pure and simple. From an M1903 rifle with the Pederson Device attached it develops a muzzle velocity of 1,300 fps with an 80 gr. bullet or about the same as the 7.65x25 mm Mauser pistol cartridge from a "broomhandle" autopistol.

[Col. Colt]

As I recall, select fire was originally planned for the M1 Carbine in the design phase - I'm not clear on why it was not provided initially.

Lots of inventions, worldwide seem to pop up in different places at about the same time - because the world wide technology to produce it becomes available, and the old thinking of how to do something is being challanged in several places at once.

But sometimes you can trace the "Father" pretty accurately. US Army Air Corps officer Claire Chennault, later of Flying Tigers fame, developed a staged "distant early warning net" in Hawaii before he even had radar - then used it again in China, and pioneered the Paratroop concept, doing actual drop trials with US soldiers and their equipment using biplanes and Ford Trimotors.

A visiting Russian Military Delegation watched one of Chennault's early experiments at dropping US Army troops and equipment - and Russia immediately offered Chennault a job! When he refused, they immediately developed their own Paratroops, then shared the concept with their new found friends, the Germans. Many think it was a Russian or German concept - because we were slower to promote it! "A Prophet is without honor in his own country". CC

[dave]

AS stated above the M1 Carbine and the Paterson device were both pistol cartridges, not intermediate types at all. The M1 Carbine was developed for officers and rear personal to have a weapon easier to learn to use and fire then the 1911. It became so popular with front line troops it ended up being made in massive numbers. But it was never intended for that use.

[Col. Colt]

I'm not sure it's right to call the .30 Carbine a "pistol cartridge". It was not designed for a pistol, but a Carbine. CC

[BrianQ]

The M1 Carbine was developed for officers and rear personal to have a weapon easier to learn to use and fire then the 1911. It became so popular with front line troops it ended up being made in massive numbers. But it was never intended for that use.

The M1 carbine was developed for the infantry not for "officers and rear personal".

[firstflabn]

The first 237 times Brian corrected this misimpression, he added that the info appears in the first few pages of War Baby! Don't know if he's gettting old or tired (all of the above?).

Looking at it another way, the army infantry battalion Table of Organization showed an 80% drop in pistols from the last revision prior to adoption of the carbine to the first revision with carbines. I don't have detailed USMC infantry battalion data, but at the regimental level, the drop in pistols is over 95% from just before the carbine to the first table with the carbine.

The "officers, cooks, and clerks" chestnut is also mostly wrong, but that correction will have to wait for another day.

[phil441]

If Brian would only write the book we all know is inside him, he could get his knowledge out there much more efficiently. But he says he won't so I guess he has another umpteen hundred posts to do....

[dave]

I'm not sure it's right to call the .30 Carbine a "pistol cartridge". It was not designed for a pistol, but a Carbine. CC

Oh, so you would not say a modern repro 1873 Win. in 45 Colt uses a pistol cartridge?, or any of the original small lever action rifles? We are talking about power here, velocities, trajectories, etc., not design intent!

[dave]

The M1 carbine was developed for the infantry not for "officers and rear personal".

Read Phillip Sharps book, I will take his word over yours, not to mention other authors. Pp.532, Rifle in America. "It is generally assumed a man can shoot better when a gun is held in both hands, and it was the 'original' intention of the General Staff to replace the 30 year old automatic pistol with a light weapon of increased fire power, accuracy and range". It goes on to explain the Peterson device of WW1 (which the official name was 'Caliber .30 model of 1918 pistol), and development of the carbine.
For all you who are unfamiliar with Phil Sharpe he was a US Army Ordinance expert in WW11 and before. Original specs for carbine ammo, 110 gr bullet @ appox. 1800 ft. sec. and was designed by Win., around the Win. 1905 32 Self Loading Cart. The Paterson cart. is identical to the French (1936) 7.65 m/m Long pistol and sub-machine gun cart. Hmmm!?

[BrianQ]

Read Phillip Sharps book, I will take his word over yours, not to mention other authors. Pp.532, Rifle in America. "It is generally assumed a man can shoot better when a gun is held in both hands, and it was the 'original' intention of the General Staff to replace the 30 year old automatic pistol with a light weapon of increased fire power, accuracy and range". It goes on to explain the Peterson device of WW1 (which the official name was 'Caliber .30 model of 1918 pistol), and development of the carbine.
For all you who are unfamiliar with Phil Sharpe he was a US Army Ordinance expert in WW11 and before. Original specs for carbine ammo, 110 gr bullet @ appox. 1800 ft. sec. and was designed by Win., around the Win. 1905 32 Self Loading Cart. The Paterson cart. is identical to the French (1936) 7.65 m/m Long pistol and sub-machine gun cart. Hmmm!?

Nothing above supports your misconception that "The M1 Carbine was developed for officers and rear personal...."

BTW it is not my word it is fact, straight from the Chief of Infantry in 1938.

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You don't have to read past the first sentence to see the intent was for combat personnel from the very beginning.

[dave]

Well if the ORIGINAL concept was to replace the 1911, who else generally carried them? No not all rear people did but also they did not need full power heavy M1 rifles. And according to report you posted it also included "crew served weapons" personal who are armed with pistols or pistol is the only 'practical weapon' for them. But is was not designed for the average foot slogging infantry soldier (to replace the rifle)!! Basically what you posted was what Sharpe said---to replace the 1911, not a basic infantry weapon. A carbine is what I was issued in Korea. I was in the AF, not the infantry.
Jeeeze, read and understand what you post!

[firstflabn]

The M1 Carbine was developed for officers and rear personal to have a weapon easier to learn to use and fire then the 1911. It became so popular with front line troops it ended up being made in massive numbers. But it was never intended for that use.

Wrongo! Can we send you a calendar?

You obviously overlooked the fact that the infantry battalion T/O of April 1, 1942, replaced 80% of the pistols with carbines. How exactly did the carbine become so wildly popular with the infantry when only a few pre-production models existed? (Answer: because infantry use was the justification for commitment of resources in the first place.)

Hows about we look at a period document prepared by an organization with policy making authority (instead of the recollections of a worker bee who had labored at a work bench)?

The FY42 annual report of the Services of Supply (forerunner of the Army Service Forces) contains the following nugget in its review of the year's activities:

"To increase the defensive and offensive power of those enlisted men heretofore armed with pistols or revolvers, and of combat officers below the grade of major, the Ordnance Department standardized, after exhaustive tests of various specimens, a new caliber .30 carbine."

What alternate definitions can you concoct for "offensive" and "combat" in the above quote?? Do you believe those terms apply better to rear area or front line units?